bornagainbass65 Posted September 16, 2016 Share Posted September 16, 2016 Everyone knows what a pain it is when there is some plonker in the band who continually wants to be turned up in the mix. My question is, what do you do when it is you? The band I'm in are good musicians and we are lucky to have very decent kit. We plug direct into a good quality pa, so no instrument amps. (We also use a Roland electronic drum kit.) When we gig I wear headphones for monitoring, which is fine. My issues are:[list] [*]When we rehearse it's a faff to use monitoring. We go through the PA but the soundie (who is nice chap, but not a musician) always sets the bass to be weak in the mix, audible but, to my ears, very much on the quiet side. (We have drums, keys, two guitars, brass, vocals, backing vocals, there's a lot going on!) [*](N.B. I don't think he's doing it because my playing is awful. I'm pretty sure it is OK. I think he genuinely believes that bass is something that should be present in the room, but not actually heard very much.) [*]I double on an EUB for some songs. I freely admit that I'm no great fretless player and really need to hear myself clearly to address my dodgy intonation. Not much chance of that. [*]Also, when you can't hear yourself well enough you start digging in too much, or making mistakes, or possibly not noticing the mistakes you are making! I find it a really disconcerting experience to hit notes and not hear them. [*]I am most concerned that if this is where he thinks bass should be in the mix, then this is how he mixes us live. [*](Interestingly, we did a support slot at a venue recently that had its own, very experienced sound guy, and he set the bass at about twice the 'normal' level in the mix. It was so clear out of the pa I didn't need to use the headphone monitors.) [/list] In this rehearsal situation I usually have ask to be turned up three or four times, just to get a reasonable level in the mix, which is frustrating. I don't want to be the twonk who continually asks to be turned up all the time. However, I'm also surprised that given the fact that I always ask to be turned up, that he doesn't just set the bass a bit higher. The rest of the band usually agree with me that the bass is too quiet. No one has ever said it is too loud, and I would happily be turned down if they did. Any constructive suggestions about how to to resolve this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashweb Posted September 16, 2016 Share Posted September 16, 2016 I think your last paragraph hits the nail on the head here. When you next get the level you (and the band by the sound of it) like then start a general discussion within the band and mixer that this is how you all want the band to sound live and recommend the mixer makes a note of the current levels. Also make a point of congratulating the mixer on being able to get the band this great sound; he'll then think it's all his idea and apply it religiously. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discreet Posted September 16, 2016 Share Posted September 16, 2016 (edited) Maybe it's because there are so many elements in the band, all requiring their sonic space? Your sound guy probably thinks the guitars, brass, vocals, keys [i]et al[/i] are more 'important' than the bass. Which is a load of tosh of course, but I bet it's something like that. It's a pain in the arse having to fight for your frequency space, which is why I generally restrict myself to bands with fewer members in them... I usually insist on my own 'stage monitor' too, which of course is a 500W rig... Edited September 16, 2016 by discreet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanAxe Posted September 16, 2016 Share Posted September 16, 2016 If your sound guy can't or won't give you the mix you all want, it is time for s new sound guy (or indeed gal). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bassjim Posted September 16, 2016 Share Posted September 16, 2016 and people ask me why i have a problem using IEM!!!! Constructive suggestion 1: Play the engineer some music where you can demonstrate the type of mix you want. If he says the kit just wont do it without distorting you need to look at that. Some folks just dont get bass and how it works live as opposed to on a record so he may be taking the wrong approach eq wise? Constructive suggestion 2 : Go back to using the 50 year old tried and tested method of using an amp. I dont mean that in a flippant way either. I am seriously suggesting the band go back to using good old amplification. If you can play together using IEMs then you already have a decent level of respect for each others volumes so maybe just go back to it. You can still use the IEMs when its an absolute necessity or as well as, and you can still use the FOH either way. If our drummer used an electronic kit there would be no need for the sort of volumes that call out for multiple monitor and IEM solutions. All IMO !!!!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muppet Posted September 16, 2016 Share Posted September 16, 2016 Is this a concern about the front of house mix or just your own monitor mix? It sounds to me like the latter. For the former, your sound guy should know the overall balance that the band wish to achieve as in post #2 and the band should leave this to him, but for the latter it's important for us all to be able to clearly hear our own part. In a monitor mix turning one up often leads to another being drowned out unintentionally. How many different mixes can your soundman supply? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_b Posted September 16, 2016 Share Posted September 16, 2016 Do you need better monitoring? Get a long lead and get out front to hear what the sound guy is hearing. Then you can give the orders. If you need to be louder then tell them. No problems with that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
christhammer666 Posted September 16, 2016 Share Posted September 16, 2016 ive played a gig before where the bass was literally inaudible to anyone. I was the only one with balls in the band I asked 3 times to be turned up and the soundman did nothing. after the next song I took my bass off stood it up and walked off stage and said theres no point me being there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EBS_freak Posted September 16, 2016 Share Posted September 16, 2016 [quote name='bassjim' timestamp='1474034896' post='3135174'] and people ask me why i have a problem using IEM!!!! Constructive suggestion 1: Play the engineer some music where you can demonstrate the type of mix you want. If he says the kit just wont do it without distorting you need to look at that. Some folks just dont get bass and how it works live as opposed to on a record so he may be taking the wrong approach eq wise? Constructive suggestion 2 : Go back to using the 50 year old tried and tested method of using an amp. I dont mean that in a flippant way either. I am seriously suggesting the band go back to using good old amplification. If you can play together using IEMs then you already have a decent level of respect for each others volumes so maybe just go back to it. You can still use the IEMs when its an absolute necessity or as well as, and you can still use the FOH either way. If our drummer used an electronic kit there would be no need for the sort of volumes that call out for multiple monitor and IEM solutions. All IMO !!!!!!!! [/quote] IEMs are easy if you have got the gear. You just need a tablet that controls your individual mix and screw everybody else ;-) Let the sound man concentrate on foh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dropzone Posted September 16, 2016 Share Posted September 16, 2016 I have very visibly thrashed all strings at the same time and said to the sound guy and said I can't hear anything. The problem is the drums and bass live near to each other in the sonic spectrum. Sound guys always set the drum level first and bass last and think the drums carry the groove. Oh how wrong they are.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Japhet Posted September 16, 2016 Share Posted September 16, 2016 Played a local festival a few weeks back and by all accounts the sound out front was good and well balanced. We were then told that we could have a CD recorded from the desk which was great but when we heard it there was no bass in it. You could just about make it out through headphones whilst guitar, drums and vocals were all perfectly audible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted September 16, 2016 Share Posted September 16, 2016 Where was he trained? Lots of people get 'bass' and 'bass guitar' confused. Maybe he can hear the bass quite well and doesn't realise that must of the mid range prescence is missing. Playing on a stage with FOH can cause problems if the bassist has a huge rig. There's no need to put it through the FOH so recordings won't be very representative. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted September 16, 2016 Share Posted September 16, 2016 You need to set the references by showing him. If he doesn't know, and you want to keep using him, show him what you need it to be. Do a sound check A lot of people don't get that a sound check is to get the levels set..and then be left alone... There is no point to setting levels if a free for all exists as soon as you start playing. No band gets good reviews with a bad mix... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shambo Posted September 16, 2016 Share Posted September 16, 2016 Try and explain the situation to the engineer as eloquently as you have in the original post. He or she is going to want to be 'on your side' because that's what a professional does, even if they have been sacrificing your bass for the sake of the overall band sound. If they're just being ornery or have a personal problem with you, they should be looking for a new gig. Perhaps there's a technical issue that can be addressed with the PA? Starting an argument with the sound engineer or flouncing off stage like a diva isn't going to help, not that you seem like the sort of person to do either. Have you had this discussion with your band mates? If you can find support amongst them for a group meeting, you can put your needs forward as a matter of fact, without fostering ill feelings or resorting to a war of words. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les Posted September 16, 2016 Share Posted September 16, 2016 If both you AND the rest of the band think this is an issue then stop asking and start instructing. You can only leave your mix to the regular sound guys idea of a mix if you trust it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve-bbb Posted September 16, 2016 Share Posted September 16, 2016 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luulox Posted September 16, 2016 Share Posted September 16, 2016 Pop down to his desk and turn yourself up to a happy level then superglue it in place. Is he an integral part of the band or is he disposable? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lozz196 Posted September 16, 2016 Share Posted September 16, 2016 (edited) I think this is just a case of differing views on how loud the bass should be, and really the only way to sort this is go out front whilst playing and tell him to up it until you and the band are happy, as it`s those opinions that count. Then note down those settings and make sure he maintains them. Realistically speaking I`d expect settings to be the same at rehearsals as at gigs so aside from room-tweakage, leave everything as it is from then on. Edited September 16, 2016 by Lozz196 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casapete Posted September 16, 2016 Share Posted September 16, 2016 Maybe get a wireless system from somewhere and have a wander round the venue so you can really hear what the audience is getting? Sound is such a subjective thing, and you have to be able to trust the guy on the desk to convey how you want your band to be heard. If all the band are in agreement as to what's required, then your tech guy either changes his ideas or you have to consider finding someone else who listens to what you require. Good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spike Vincent Posted September 16, 2016 Share Posted September 16, 2016 Have you simply asked the sound man why he is consistently and persistently providing a mix that both you and the rest of the band aren't happy with ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkHeart Posted September 16, 2016 Share Posted September 16, 2016 turn your bass down, then when he turns you up, you turn up as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul_5 Posted September 16, 2016 Share Posted September 16, 2016 Get a digital desk - have a rehearsal without said 'sound engineer' (and I use the term loosely), get a level that works for everyone, then save it as a preset. Job done! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mykesbass Posted September 17, 2016 Share Posted September 17, 2016 Turn your bass down while he's setting everyone up, then when you start playing as a band turn yourself up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Starr Posted September 17, 2016 Share Posted September 17, 2016 Hmm this is obviously more to do with personal relationships rather than anything technical. You seem to get on well with this guy and with the band. It shouldn't be too difficult. firstly you actually have two problems, one real and one suspected. Monitoring and FOH mix. The best thing is to separate them. Monitoring has to be right, if you can't hear you can't play. If the sound guy doesn't get that then he is very inexperienced/lacking in knowledge. In the end you just have to be assertive and talk to him, no need to be aggressive or rude but just let him know that there is a problem and it's affecting your playing and ultimately the band's sound. See if he has any suggestions but if he can't offer anything be ready with suggestions. They are, turning you up in the monitor mix, giving you your own monitor mix or taking some back line to give you on stage monitoring (you'd have to square that last one with the band of course). Is he operating with just one monitor mix? That may be because he doesn't have enough busses on the mixer. If so then your mixer is probably not good enough to run in ear monitoring well. You can solve this with either a mixer upgrade or by splitting your bass feed so you get both his feed and a signal from your bass which you can feed into a little mixer/headphone amp which you control. As to the FOH sound you just have to get out there at the sound check and have a listen, which means a long lead or a wireless system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyquipment Posted September 17, 2016 Share Posted September 17, 2016 EQ the bass so it sounds louder ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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