LukeFRC Posted June 27, 2014 Share Posted June 27, 2014 Why on earth are bass amps so powerful? No I know why we need more power, and the physics.... just why is the standard starting place now seem to be around 500w when back a few years ago it was 300w... or 200w or 150w amps.... Now back in the old days, maybe valve watts were "louder" but 80's trace stuff was more likely to be under 500w.... were bands just quieter? And... surely we've more efficient speakers now? so more power for more efficient speakers... why has the amount of power needed/used crept up? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayPete1977 Posted June 27, 2014 Share Posted June 27, 2014 More 5 string basses wont of helped I guess needing plenty of watts and large cabs for a dirty dub bass line rather than just throwing in a low B at the end of a 12 bar blues, gas from reading stuff on basschat about minimum watts they would gig with probably more likely and most of all watts have never been cheaper. My Shuttlemax 9.2 twin channel beast came with the foot pedal and a gig skinz carry case in mint condition but used just a few times off ebay for £530, even at the £1050 new thats just over a £1 a watt! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kev Posted June 27, 2014 Share Posted June 27, 2014 Without putting much thought into it, I always thought it was just these new digital power amps in comparison with the old. A 200w Trace Elliot is hella loud compared to the modern class D equivalent... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ash Posted June 28, 2014 Share Posted June 28, 2014 My Vox AC50 seems as loud as my Markbass combo but very gritty sounding through the old Foundation cab. Putting the Vox head through the Mark combo speaker makes you realise how powerful these old amps really are. Despite the humble power rating. My Markbass is the best amp I've ever owned but I wonder if it will be working as well as a 1964 Vox in 50 years time. I guess modern power ratings are a bit meaningless ( like government stats on unemployment figures ) and seductive. Loud is loud despite what it says on the label. First decent amp I owned was a Trace AH150 that could shake the rafters of any club in East Lancashire and a university or two! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Japhet Posted June 28, 2014 Share Posted June 28, 2014 Headroom? In previous bands I used to have to drive amps pretty hard (sometimes flat out) to be heard. I now use amps of around 500-600 watts which keep up effortlessly with 2 loud guitarists and a gorilla on drums. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lozz196 Posted June 28, 2014 Share Posted June 28, 2014 I think it`s a lot to do with getting a clean loud sound. Although many older lower-power rated amps are very loud, the sound isn`t as clean. And now many of us are wanting that old sound, with our clean higher-power rated small amps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrismuzz Posted June 28, 2014 Share Posted June 28, 2014 I'd say headroom too. The ability to have a clearer cleaner sound at higher volumes. Although I'm sure a lot of it is marketing. I mean look at what Behringer are doing at the moment, advertising their gear purely on how many watts you get! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ash Posted June 28, 2014 Share Posted June 28, 2014 I agree with the idea of more watts = more headroom but I do feel the older amps were over engineered and under rated (in wattage terms). There are a lot of churned out high rated amps that don't really deliver what (watt!?) they promise. I do think a lot of it is about how speaker technology has come on. An old valve amp through a modern cab can still push air albeit a little more polluted! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cameronj279 Posted June 28, 2014 Share Posted June 28, 2014 I'm another one for the 'clearer sound at higher volumes' reasoning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fitzmaurice Posted June 28, 2014 Share Posted June 28, 2014 Headroom is mainly defined by the capacity of the power supply. Wattage ratings have skyrocketed, but the actual capacity of the power supplies has not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hubrad Posted June 28, 2014 Share Posted June 28, 2014 [quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1403911305' post='2487758'] Why on earth are bass amps so powerful? [/quote] Nobody has risen to this one! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted June 28, 2014 Share Posted June 28, 2014 I've always needed power as I don't put much input into the signal compared to most... This way I don't have to drive/cane the amp andway/anyhow just to get level and my sound has improved immensely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beer of the Bass Posted June 28, 2014 Share Posted June 28, 2014 I wonder if the escalation in the power of bass amps over the years has something to do with the increasingly popular practice of miking the drums even in small venues, and the resultant need to sit alongside an amplified kick drum? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indiegrungesound Posted June 28, 2014 Share Posted June 28, 2014 Because you can't turn drummers down and guitar players DON'T turn down! :@ ;-) I will back up what's been said on here about certain Solid state amps though. I've heard & played old '80s Peavey & Trace Elliot amp heads that are louder than newer Class D heads with higher wattages. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lozz196 Posted June 28, 2014 Share Posted June 28, 2014 My old Fender Bassman - don`t know what wattage it was - was incredibly loud, but at those volumes a clean sound would not come out of it. I`m sure it would have given my 500 watt mini-amps a run on volume, but clean, not a chance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icastle Posted June 28, 2014 Share Posted June 28, 2014 Possibly because 'watts' are whatever a manufacturer decides they are instead of having a definition like all other measurements. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0175westwood29 Posted June 28, 2014 Share Posted June 28, 2014 [quote name='Lozz196' timestamp='1403971839' post='2488236'] My old Fender Bassman - don`t know what wattage it was - was incredibly loud, but at those volumes a clean sound would not come out of it. I`m sure it would have given my 500 watt mini-amps a run on volume, but clean, not a chance. [/quote] lozz is spot on my old orange ad140b valve amp was bloody defining however was totally over driven and dirt, where as my tb1000 can go silly loud and unless i crank the gain stay clean, however best loud clean amp ive had was still my markbass lm2. but in general i have the 1000 even tho really id be fine with the 500 just so if i need to push the volume up a bit im not running the amp at above 12 o clock andy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weststarx Posted June 28, 2014 Share Posted June 28, 2014 I have a powerful amp just because I know if I need that extra power or louder volume its there if I need it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad3353 Posted June 28, 2014 Share Posted June 28, 2014 It mounts up very quickly, as (in theory...), twice the volume needs 10 x the power, so a 50w amp becomes 500w. The next stage up (twice more volume...) would be 5 kW. We see those in PA systems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gsgbass Posted June 28, 2014 Share Posted June 28, 2014 Because it's there, and why not. [IMG]http://i.imgur.com/lgLavdf.gif[/IMG] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Starr Posted June 28, 2014 Share Posted June 28, 2014 [quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1403978439' post='2488307'] It mounts up very quickly, as (in theory...), twice the volume needs 10 x the power, so a 50w amp becomes 500w. The next stage up (twice more volume...) would be 5 kW. We see those in PA systems. [/quote] This is right, you can just tell a 1dB rise and really you need 3dB to be able to say that an amp is appreciably louder. That takes twice the power. So going from 75W to 150w doesn't seem like much but going from 200-400W is exactly the same 3dB step. The real reason is (I suspect) that amplifier watts are so much cheaper nowadays, especially allowing for inflation. I've been toying with buying one of the TC amps and the RH750 is only about £100 more than the 450, 30p per watt! We'd have bought 750W amps years ago but they weren't affordable, and we couldn't have lifted them. Modern speakers, by and large are less efficient, trading low bass and excursion for efficiency. They will handle more power though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LukeFRC Posted June 28, 2014 Author Share Posted June 28, 2014 [quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1403984294' post='2488352'] This is right, you can just tell a 1dB rise and really you need 3dB to be able to say that an amp is appreciably louder. That takes twice the power. So going from 75W to 150w doesn't seem like much but going from 200-400W is exactly the same 3dB step. The real reason is (I suspect) that amplifier watts are so much cheaper nowadays, especially allowing for inflation. I've been toying with buying one of the TC amps and the RH750 is only about £100 more than the 450, 30p per watt! We'd have bought 750W amps years ago but they weren't affordable, and we couldn't have lifted them. Modern speakers, by and large are less efficient, trading low bass and excursion for efficiency. They will handle more power though. [/quote] I went and tried a RH750 today. Interesting amp. I was about to make a comment about how it's not a 750w amp but then found this article which might answer my first question in the OP to a certain degree... http://service.tcgroup.tc/media/tc-electronic-power-rating-and-active-power-management.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Owen Posted June 28, 2014 Share Posted June 28, 2014 Gobs of power in reserve is where the tone is at. You can pluck harder and the amp does not complain or give up, it just gets louder. You can play LOW notes and the amp just keeps on giving. I used to bridge 1.8Kw with a Chevin A3000 into an Eden 410XLT. Not for the volume, but the authority of the grunt it created was totally the bomb. The modern smaller heads are all very clever with their this that and the other processing. My present amp is DSP-a-go-go, but there is something about a proper big power stage that just delivers. Crest CA9 amps used to be the power amp of choice. Would we choose to carry one @ 21Kg? No chance. Would we love to play through one? Believe it. I guess it is the same kind of power delivered in the big and heavy Aguilar amps which are constantly referred to as having depth and authority. I am wandering WAY out of my comfort zone now, but a big and hairy power stage is more likely to be able to control cone movement (less flopping around) by having better damping. Please feel free to correct me on this point. Gobs of power in reserve is where the tone is at. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlapbassSteve Posted June 28, 2014 Share Posted June 28, 2014 [quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1403978439' post='2488307'] It mounts up very quickly, as (in theory...), twice the volume needs 10 x the power, so a 50w amp becomes 500w. The next stage up (twice more volume...) would be 5 kW. We see those in PA systems. [/quote] This is why I binned off my Markbass stack and have been DI-ing ever since. A good set of PA speakers will have a much wider range than most bass amps and to my ear they sound much more neutral... a little bit of EQ/gain on the desk and it's all good! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad3353 Posted June 28, 2014 Share Posted June 28, 2014 [quote name='SlapbassSteve' timestamp='1403989581' post='2488397'] This is why I binned off my Markbass stack and have been DI-ing ever since. A good set of PA speakers will have a much wider range than most bass amps and to my ear they sound much more neutral... a little bit of EQ/gain on the desk and it's all good! [/quote] This is fine [i]if[/i], and it's a big 'if', the band PA cuts the mustard. If my band are playing out with our autonomous PA, it won't carry the bass with anything like the conviction of our Hiwatt 200. If we're playing with a venue FOH, of course, that's fine. We still prefer the Hiwatt, though, for the stage sound Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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