Why do we need so much power?

[molan]

[quote name='GrammeFriday' timestamp='1404644003' post='2494339']
I'm afraid I'm not on first name terms with him so must bow to your superior wisdom on this point! But I can already see that it was a mistake on my part to throw in a flippant joke about celebrity endorsers - far too easy for nay-sayers to shoot down. All that really matters is that my TC rig works for me, and it does that in spades.
[/quote]

Sorry - didn't realise it was a joke

I have a, vague, professional interest in Janek G and visit his site fairly regularly to see what he's up to and every picture on his home page shows him with his Aguilar Th500 and pair of Aguilar SL112's. I've seen pics of him playing these live many times as well so always assumed this was his main choice

http://janekgwizdala.com/home/

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='Grissle' timestamp='1404633282' post='2494212']
Actually the power section distortion has as much or maybe more effect on a nice overdriven sound. So its not all the preamp. It's the whole package. Pedals like the VT work to emulate the power section being pushed as well as the pre and explains why its done so well.
[/quote] In my mind if a solid state power amp is giving you any noticeable amount of distortion it's not working properly.
[quote name='GrammeFriday' timestamp='1404646088' post='2494356']
Interesting post - thanks for your thoughtful reply, Molan.

The RH 750 does have an onboard compressor, but you have to dial a dedicated knob to activate it, so [b]I'm not sure about there being any artificial compression baked into it as a default setting[/b]. Maybe, but not that I'd noticed. On the contrary, to me it sounds very neutral when everything is set flat. In fact that was one of the things that I most liked about it when I first tried it out. But that leads me to wonder … how does anyone really know what the "natural sound" of their bass actually is? OK, there is the acoustically natural sound of an unplugged bass, but once you have plugged it into an amp - any amp - it is going to be coloured to some extent by the characteristics of the amp and cab(s) you are plugged into - which means it comes down to personal tone preferences - which are often very subjective, and probably only perceptible to us as bass players anyway. And to be honest I think the differences between modern amps are much less significant than the similarities - if you have an Aguilar, or a TC, or a GK, or a Genz, or a Markbass, or (name your own favourite modern gear) then you probably have a really nice sounding set-up, and the only people who are going to tell you that your tone sucks are other bassists who happen to prefer other brands of amp.

So, when you say that people complain that the TC amp robs their bass of its natural tone, I can't help but wonder whether they really mean that it sounds a bit different to the amp that they usually use and are most familiar with - which is in itself no more 'natural' than the TC sound.
[/quote] if you look at the document TC link to to describe their amplifier's power spec - here - [url="http://service.tcgroup.tc/media/tc-electronic-power-rating-and-active-power-management.pdf"]TCE Power rating and Active Power Management[/url] - you'll see that a "baked in compression" is part of the design of their amps. And quite a clever one - if it in practice makes any difference to the amps is up for debate (as Molan said based on more experience than me)
If you look at the long term W RMS at 4 ohms the RH450 can put out 236 w - interestingly the RH750 also puts out 236w - BUT the burst power it can put out is almost double the RH450. So it's got less of the limiting and compression than the RH450, but my guess a similar low end roll off built in at 50-60hz mark.
As a bass amp goes - this could be one of the highest end most conceptually developed bass heads ever made. It's certainly clever. But it's not neutral at all - or trying to be.
(ps theses a couple of articles here that are useful in seeing how the RH450 works... http://btpub.boyd-printing.com/publication/?i=76122 )

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='molan' timestamp='1404654092' post='2494418']
There's only one dedicated cab brand that's really unpopular but that's not something to debate in an amp thread.
[/quote]

I did tell you that that Bugera stuff wouldn't go down well with your customers!

[Musicman20]

I'm sure Janek just uses a few different amps...I would.

http://www.tcelectronic.com/janek-gwizdala/

[GrammeFriday]

Thanks for this info, LukeFRC. To be honest I tend not to read manuals, and I don't work in a bass shop - I just play bass, listen with my ears, and form my own views on what sounds good.

[Musicman20]

[quote name='GrammeFriday' timestamp='1404654772' post='2494424']
Thanks for this info, LukeFRC. To be honest I tend not to read manuals, and I don't work in a bass shop - I just play bass, listen with my ears, and form my own views on what sounds good.
[/quote]

...which is what matters in the end! Sound is subjective...if it sounds great then that's all that matters.

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='GrammeFriday' timestamp='1404654772' post='2494424']
Thanks for this info, LukeFRC. To be honest I tend not to read manuals, and I don't work in a bass shop - I just play bass, listen with my ears, and form my own views on what sounds good.
[/quote] I used to run sound systems and PA's long before I learned Bass so I have an interest in how something is working as much as if it sounds great or not. In my experience something that sounds great in one situation won't in another - why that is is interesting.

Interestingly, in a thread about the upward creep of amp's rated wattage the TC electronics stuff is a useful anomaly where the RH750 putting out a continuous 236w RMS into 4 ohms - which is probably not that much different to your old 80's trace elliot stuff. Which is interesting in itself.
I know which one I would rather carry!

[GrammeFriday]

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1404655935' post='2494434']
I used to run sound systems and PA's long before I learned Bass so I have an interest in how something is working as much as if it sounds great or not. In my experience something that sounds great in one situation won't in another - why that is is interesting.
[/quote]

Yes, absolutely. That's why I'm particularly interested in the comments above saying that TC gear does not work in a live band mix. The 'tone sucking' stuff I have heard before and consider spurious, but there may be something in the live mix issue worth thinking about. I wonder whether it may be something to do with the kind of music being played? I have no problems at all being heard in the mix in the funk and pop covers band I'm currently in, but maybe if I were playing dad rock or bog-standard indie then maybe it might not sound so good? Dunno … just thinking aloud! (Always a risky thing to do on BC ...)

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1404655935' post='2494434']
Interestingly, in a thread about the upward creep of amp's rated wattage the TC electronics stuff is a useful anomaly where the RH750 putting out a continuous 236w RMS into 4 ohms - which is probably not that much different to your old 80's trace elliot stuff. Which is interesting in itself.
I know which one I would rather carry!
[/quote]

As someone who used to lug a huge Trace Elliot stack up and down various grotty pub back stairs in years gone by, I say amen to that!

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='GrammeFriday' timestamp='1404643449' post='2494333']
but he was using an all-TC rig last time I saw him (playing with Supersilent) and the sound was amazing.
[/quote]You mean the sound of the PA was amazing. You probably couldn't hear a note from the backline.

[GrammeFriday]

True. Can't remember the last time I wasn't playing DI into the desk myself, so really should have thought of that before posting.

But my original point stands nonetheless. Do people in this thread [i]really[/i] think that JPJ only uses TC equipment because they pay him to? FFS ...

[xgsjx]

[quote name='GrammeFriday' timestamp='1404657427' post='2494454']
True. Can't remember the last time I wasn't playing DI into the desk myself, so really should have thought of that before posting.

But my original point stands nonetheless. Do people in this thread [i]really[/i] think that JPJ only uses TC equipment because they pay him to? FFS ...
[/quote]
That's a possibility. Given he'll have good monitoring, it won't make a jube to his sound if he uses TCE, Carlsbro or Kampera.
A DI from before the back line & the sound engineer can make him sound how he wants to.

[JTUK]

[quote name='molan' timestamp='1404642516' post='2494321']
Janek only ever seems to use Aguilar - that does seem to be a brand that a lot of gigging pros use.
[/quote]

Quite understandable as their big amps are the real beans, IMO.
Well and truly stolen Ampegs clothes by doing vintage vibey thing better, which is something your good friend
will say as well..
The EQ is subtle and as long as your bass sounds good, you don't need a powerful EQ stage,
which is a throwback to pre semi para EQ's stages.. and all the better for it, IMO.
Mappings are ok in amps and perform a function for some... but the DB amps are matched very well
with the cabs to an end goal... and there should be no reason why you do anything other than
spend a while setting them up and there on after, complete plug and play... IME.

Not a fan of class D amps I've tried. Not that I wouldn't have/buy one... but it wouldn't do the more discerning or
important gigs as I have other options... I'd say the same about NEO as well...
Can't explain it... but its there, IMO...

My smallest amp is 400w into 4 and it is my practice amp at home...

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1404660281' post='2494480']
Quite understandable as their big amps are the real beans, IMO.
Well and truly stolen Ampegs clothes by doing vintage vibey thing better, which is something your good friend
will say as well..
The EQ is subtle and as long as your bass sounds good, you don't need a powerful EQ stage,
which is a throwback to pre semi para EQ's stages.. and all the better for it, IMO.
Mappings are ok in amps and perform a function for some... but the DB amps are matched very well
with the cabs to an end goal... and there should be no reason why you do anything other than
spend a while setting them up and there on after, complete plug and play... IME.

Not a fan of class D amps I've tried. Not that I wouldn't have/buy one... but it wouldn't do the more discerning or
important gigs as I have other options... I'd say the same about NEO as well...
Can't explain it... but its there, IMO...

My smallest amp is 400w into 4 and it is my practice amp at home...
[/quote] can we have a limit to the number to cans of worms you open in one post!

[JTUK]

Yep, sorry about that,...

I do feel that a lot of people do or should have a pretty good idea how their bass will sound 'uncoloured'
so therefore may well just shy away from amps that they deem too coloured or not returning a sound they expect
when running 'flat'..
An extreme case in point would be old TE, and certainly H/H and Carlboro which were the amps that were obtainable in my formative years
as the SS revolution kicked it. And they were very coloured IMO..
The reason you'd know how your bass sounded would be that engrs tended to DI you straight thru the desk as this was the cheap
and quickest option in budget studios... and mic'ing the bass amp/cab just was too much of a hassle for a few reasons so you ended up with a
very clean bass signal through the cleanest signal ..by definition..in the studio, the Studio monitors, as well as headphones.
That in itself was a horror lesson when you first heard yourself back solo'ed..

I am happy we have 500w amps in abundance as I play with powerful drummers and I play very lightly...this has been a god send to me level and playing wise...

Edited July 6, 2014 by JTUK

[sykilz]

I have the cheaper TC BH500 head and play "dad rock" through a 4x10 mostly , in a very loud band, and I rarely run the master volume past 9 o'clock, in stark contrast to the Ampeg PF500 which I had to run to breaking point just to be barely audible, in fact it used to cut out, a lot. So if my TC only puts out 236 watts then it does so very cleverly, and effectively, I personally have always liked the tone, but then , IMO, when playing rock stuff tone doesn't have to be subtle, just loud and punchy will do!!

[GrammeFriday]

Good to hear! I am partial to a bit of dad rock myself, so this makes me want to try once again to persuade my covers band to include a cover of Back in Black! (Not holding my breath, though ...)

[GrammeFriday]

[quote name='molan' timestamp='1404654092' post='2494418']
In terms of amps there are only really two brands that people tend not to like at all - TC and Ashdown.
[/quote]
OK, maybe those of us who like TC are tiny minority weirdoes, but is Ashdown really that unpopular? Plenty of Ashdown love here, for example:
http://basschat.co.uk/topic/239687-ashdown-at-festivals/


[quote name='molan' timestamp='1404654092' post='2494418']
Of course there are a few brands that seem to be universally liked as well so it's not all negative stuff
[/quote]
I'd be interested to know who these brands are - and I bet a few seconds of searching the threads here will find plenty of posts slagging them off!

[molan]

[quote name='GrammeFriday' timestamp='1404664744' post='2494536']

I'd be interested to know who these brands are - and I bet a few seconds of searching the threads here will find plenty of posts slagging them off!
[/quote]

Pick a brand, literally any brand, and you'll find plenty of negative comments on forums about them unfortunately

All I can offer is my personal view, based on user experience, and that of customers I meet in an everyday working situation.

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='molan' timestamp='1404665753' post='2494546']
Pick a brand, literally any brand, and you'll find plenty of negative comments on forums about them unfortunately

All I can offer is my personal view, based on user experience, and that of customers I meet in an everyday working situation.
[/quote] it must be a bit annoying for some of these wee companies to go on forums and find loads of negative rubbish about your product.

mind you if you can be this season's trend on talkbass you've got a 4 month window to make enough to retire on!

[molan]

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1404666170' post='2494550']
it must be a bit annoying for some of these wee companies to go on forums and find loads of negative rubbish about your product.

mind you if you can be this season's trend on talkbass you've got a 4 month window to make enough to retire on!
[/quote]

Funnily enough one of the other things we find in the shop is how few customers ever visit (or have even heard of) the online bass forums.

Manufacturers tend to know about them but it's very rare, from what we hear, for any of them to get too upset about user comments.

TalkBass has a lot more manufacturer involvement - I guess because of the overall scale but also because there are more of them for whom TB is their 'local' market.

[BassBunny]

[quote name='essexbasscat' timestamp='1404636469' post='2494249']


Out of interest, what mic do you use ?
[/quote]
When we started tracking the problem down, I was using a Shure SM58. We had some Samson Q7's as "emergency spares", so tried one and it improved matters tremendously, so that is what I use now. Actually prefer it to the SM58 and with the exception of lead vox, we all use them now.

[sykilz]

[quote name='GrammeFriday' timestamp='1404664319' post='2494524']
Good to hear! I am partial to a bit of dad rock myself, so this makes me want to try once again to persuade my covers band to include a cover of Back in Black! (Not holding my breath, though ...)
[/quote]
One of, if not THE finest rock riff ever, and still widely played on the radio so why not cover it, most people know it, even non rock fans!!

[essexbasscat]

[quote name='BassBunny' timestamp='1404674104' post='2494641']

When we started tracking the problem down, I was using a Shure SM58. We had some Samson Q7's as "emergency spares", so tried one and it improved matters tremendously, so that is what I use now. Actually prefer it to the SM58 and with the exception of lead vox, we all use them now.
[/quote]

I did wonder if it was a 58, I've had bleedover city at gigs with 58's on stage. Gone over to Sennheiser now, good so far. Thanks for satisfying my curiousity BB

[JTUK]

[quote name='essexbasscat' timestamp='1404683466' post='2494760']
I did wonder if it was a 58, I've had bleedover city at gigs with 58's on stage. Gone over to Sennheiser now, good so far. Thanks for satisfying my curiousity BB
[/quote]

Which is why a lot of people avoid them esp for lead vox...
If you are struggling, they do for an O/H

[razze06]

Others have commented that TC amps suck the life out of the tone, and I might agree to a certain extent. Truth is that the tone is in the ears of the listener, as also already mentioned before

The RH450 has a certain set of tonal characteristics which will affect the sound of the bass, foremost of which to me is the quality of the high frequencies. My personal listener experience is that the tone I get for live work is perfectly acceptable, volume is more than sufficient, adaptability of the eq to the venue and position is good, and presence in the mix is good. I also see that this may not work for many people, as I don't love glassy highs, or deep deep lows.

What does it for me is that it is a good, adaptable amp with lots of useful features. I do not LOVE it, but it's great for live work and I shall keep on using it

Edited July 7, 2014 by razze06