Rayman Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 (edited) We had our first experience with an in house noise limiter last night [i]gooaan[/i]........ What a pain in the rear end. We don't do weddings, because we're not the right kind of music, Muse, Chillis, foos covers, it's not really wedding music, and yes, we're pretty loud. However, we are friends with the bride and groom, who've seen us live many times, and they wanted us to play for them. So, cutting a long story short, we spent the whole gig playing half heartedly, at a lower volume than we rehearse at, staring at the limiter on the wall peaking in and out of the red constantly. Inevitably, we over did it, and the power went off, twice. Now to [i]me, [/i]either you have live bands at your venue, or you don't. If your venue is in a residential area, and noise could be an issue, don't have bands, period. To me it's a simple as that. there's no halfway house in my opinion, and if as a venue you agree to have a live band play, then it's your fault if it goes tits up, and the venue assured us all it would be fine, it wasn't, and we're all very pissed off. The bride and groom had a great time, and their friends all enjoyed the music, but the power thing took the edge off it, and I for one was very close to launching a Stingray 5 across the room at the poxy box of tricks stuck on the wall. Edited July 22, 2012 by Rayman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redbandit599 Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 We used to play a pub with one of these, but rather handily there was a plug socket behind a fridge on the bar that wasn't connected into the circuit. My advice is go hunting for those magic sockets and see if you can keep the damn thing red all night. Bit dodgy running a 5 piece rock band, pa, lights, monitors, smoke machine off one socket mind Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 I won't play venues with these devices fitted. There is a reason why they are there. It's because there have been complaints about the volume and the device has been fitted in order to keep the audio levels down to what has been considered acceptable for the location. If the level the device has been set at means that a typical band with acoustic drums is going to set it off, then the venue shouldn't be booking them or booking events like weddings that are going to want a live band without explaining the situation first. They should be sticking to acoustic duos and quiet background music. It's also irresponsible for the venue to allow a band to bypass the device. If they can't play by the rules pretty soon it will have gone from only quiet music to no music at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayPete1977 Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 Always find the kitchen sockets! If anyone asks you tell them its just for the lights for on stage elf n safety Although I know what BRX is saying the trouble with these things is that they are crap! One gentle tap of a rattly snare drum and they are off sometimes, we have had others where as long as we kept it at a normal level it never peaked past the amber all night? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 Does anyone know what the legal situation with these is, if there is a noise complaint, the police arrive and discover that you are able to play so loud because you've bypassed the device? I'm guessing that they'll shut down the gig there and then. However do they have the power to do more like confiscate your equipment? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve-bbb Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 [quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1342945955' post='1742921'] Does anyone know what the legal situation with these is, if there is a noise complaint, the police arrive and discover that you are able to play so loud because you've bypassed the device? I'm guessing that they'll shut down the gig there and then. However do they have the power to do more like confiscate your equipment? [/quote] unless there is some sort of disturbance in progress or pending it is unlikely police will attend - the noise policing is totally down to local councils - they should have an on call EH person especially on busy nights to be able to attend - it is usually they who call for police claiming that they fear the crowd will become violent and their safety will be threatened if they do their job Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BassBunny Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 Funnily enough we played a Wedding last night with a Noise Limiter. The venue had already run an extention from the room next door and told us to use that. This place went even futher, opening the Fire Doors also cut the power. Most of the issues with Limiters is poor installation. The levels they are normally set to go off at are pretty damn loud, and if installed properly you would need to be deafening to trigger them. We played a club last week that had one and it was perfect. We are a pretty loud band and it never even got near going off all night. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lozz196 Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 Once an establishment has one of these things, they should have the sense to not book bands. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrismuzz Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 The real issue is the idiots who choose to live near a pub or venue that has live bands, and then complain about it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lojo Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 Only once, and the caretaker / maintenance bloke shown us how to "override it" and told us that he had said nothing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balcro Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 (edited) Most of those limiters have been fitted long after the local authority have become involved because of complaints. They are often the only practicable way (from the venue owners point of view, not the band's) of keeping the noise level under control. It's cheaper to fit one of those than do a proper noise insulation job by installing double windows and extra lobbies. The local authorities can't instantly tell the venues to do a specific job such as "you must build double windows on the front wall" or "you must build an extra entrance lobby beyond the existing one". The owners always have the option to do what is called "alternative works that will achieve the same effect". The building work could cost thousands, a noise limiter probably costs a little over £1000 for a simple installation. Wiring the alarm up to openable doors or windows probably only costs a few hundred more. By-passing the circuit by looking for sockets not on the control circuit is a short sighted thing for the venue to do; it could cost them their entertainment licence. Post no.3 from BigRedX - I agree. The trouble is the venue owners/managers want to push the boundaries of what they can get away with, they also want the business, so the band is stuck as piggy-in-the-middle. As BassBunny says, "most of the issues with noise limiters are poor installation". I'd add to that poor setting-up and poor level setting. Oh, and chewing gum over the noise level sensor. Post No. 5 BRX. The legal position. It's more likely these days to be the on-call Environmental Health person - that used to be me! If they find you've bypassed the control circuit then you don't get it in the neck. It's the manager or owner who holds the Licence and it's up to them to control the noise level. If you've by-passed the circuit without the management's knowledge, then the chance are you won't get booked again. E.H people don't normally have the power to shut down the gig on the spot. I've never heard of equipment being seized from a live gig. That's usually confined to nutty serial domestic offenders who've been served with legal notices and ignored the conditions. I've done it from one of those temporary shops that wouldn't stop it's noisy promotion. The other exception is unauthorised raves in woods or barns. It could happen at a pay-party, but only after a notice has been served and the problem had persisted. Chrismuzz. Sorry, it doesn't work like that. The law (or rather case-law) says the opposite and has done for over 100 years. True, there are plenty of idiots about, but before they move in, did they see the venue in action? Quite possibly not. If you move in next to a pub or similar venue then you have to expect a certain [u]modest level of noise[/u] - that's the law & case-law too. To make matters worse, that householder is entitled to leave a window a few inches ajar for ventilation and still be entitled to complain about an excessive level of noise. Only when the noise exceeds that "modest" level of noise, does the law kick in. Balcro. P.S. Rayman, don't wreck your Stingray on the little black box. You ought to blame the multitude of idiots who forced it's introduction and then didn't do a thorough job on making it work as effectively as it can do. Edited July 22, 2012 by Balcro Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrismanbass Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 good tool to arm yourself with is a little portable decibel reader about £30 from Maplin this make it appear that your on the same side as the management and means your more effectively able to control your sound levels and play within the rules that have been forced upon you by the little box of hell on the wall, unfortunately the nature of a drum kit means that your likely to set it off at some point in the night as most to my knowledge are set at around 90dB whereas a loud hit on a snare drum can be up to 120dB so its a bit of a non starter anyway. [url="http://www.maplin.co.uk/mini-sound-level-meter-226470"]http://www.maplin.co.uk/mini-sound-level-meter-226470[/url] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
molan Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 I played a wedding once where the noise meter had been set to specifically cut power if low frequencies were loud. It had a little (locked) switch on it that chose the frequency & it was bang in the middle of a decent bass tone. The thing that really annoyed me was that the only house in a 5 mile radius of the barn we were playing in was owned by the guy who leased the venue out for weddings! i've also played at a venue with a meter that tripped if anyone opened a window or the french doors onto the lovely garden. Luckily our guitarist didn't have his all valve head with him that, warm summer, night. . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discreet Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 (edited) [quote name='chrismuzz' timestamp='1342948751' post='1742969'] The real issue is the idiots who choose to live near a pub or venue that has live bands, and then complain about it...[/quote] This. Llike people who buy a cheap house next to an airport, then complain that they're 'always on the flight path...' Edited July 22, 2012 by discreet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bartelby Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 [quote name='discreet' timestamp='1342962969' post='1743175'] This. Llike people who buy a cheap house next to an airport, then complain that they're 'always on the flight path...' [/quote] Like the people who buy a house in the centre of the the Imola race track. Then complained about the noise from the races, track days and testing and get very close to having the circuit shut down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
musophilr Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 Like the people who moved into our village, then complained about the church bells ringing on Thursday evenings. Now there's just the noise of HGVs being driven through the village ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balcro Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 [quote name='musophilr' timestamp='1342969068' post='1743243'] Like the people who moved into our village, then complained about the church bells ringing on Thursday evenings. Now there's just the noise of HGVs being driven through the village ... [/quote] This sort of thing really annoys me. If it had been me working there, I'd have stressed the importance of that "moderate level of noise" that must be accepted under the law. Sometimes I really wonder of some of these Environmental Health Officers and their senior management really know what they're doing. Or maybe someone knew somebody who knew etc... As for aircraft noise, nothing can be done directly. If the airlines/airport keep within an agreed time frame or noise control plan etc, then all they might get is a verbal slap on the wrist. Balcro. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lurksalot Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 [quote name='Balcro' timestamp='1342956772' post='1743081'] Most of those limiters have been fitted long after the local authority have become involved because of complaints. They are often the only practicable way (from the venue owners point of view, not the band's) of keeping the noise level under control. It's cheaper to fit one of those than do a proper noise insulation job by installing double windows and extra lobbies. The local authorities can't instantly tell the venues to do a specific job such as "you must build double windows on the front wall" or "you must build an extra entrance lobby beyond the existing one". The owners always have the option to do what is called "alternative works that will achieve the same effect". The building work could cost thousands, a noise limiter probably costs a little over £1000 for a simple installation. Wiring the alarm up to openable doors or windows probably only costs a few hundred more. [/quote] I am not so sure about this , I recently did a contract installing secondary sound insulation glazing to a pub in Crewe, apparrantly the terms of the music license included double glazing, and the last inspection noted that the place was single glazed . I was half way through some getting all the sound info to present to the brewery when I realised there was no stipulation of noise levels to work on , the spec was purely 'double glazed' . It cost a lot more than £1K and the brewery were happy to sort it out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balcro Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 (edited) [quote name='lurksalot' timestamp='1342979300' post='1743378'] I am not so sure about this , I recently did a contract installing secondary sound insulation glazing to a pub in Crewe, apparrantly the terms of the music license included double glazing, and the last inspection noted that the place was single glazed . I was half way through some getting all the sound info to present to the brewery when I realised there was no stipulation of noise levels to work on , the spec was purely 'double glazed' . It cost a lot more than £1K and the brewery were happy to sort it out. [/quote] I should have emphasised that Environmental Health can't specify precisely what is to be fitted or installed when they are taking action for "Nuisance" under the Environmental Protection Act. It's one of the legal niceties that get in the way of quick action. If however the EH people meet with the owners/managers and or a noise consultant for the venue, then the terms of the Notice can be agreed and drafted accordingly. In the case you mention, you refer to both "secondary sound insulation glazing" and "double glazing" in the Licence. Can you tell me what precisely was fitted? One type is good and the other could be a waste of money. Balcro. Edited July 22, 2012 by Balcro Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobbayne Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 I,m sure this wont do the equipment any good either. I,m quite particular with my stuff, and its always powered up and powered down by the correct switch. Not by cutting the power off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertbass Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 We were the test band for a new sound limiter in a pub that we played in once. On being told that one was being fitted and tested on the night that we were to play the gig we said forget the gig, we don't play with them on but were talked into it. Not only was it set to 85db, but the power could only be reset from behind the bar, no switching on again after a preset time. Another gig we played had a mic installed actually in the stage and the power switched off as you walked across it. We were told, no one plugs into those sockets, use the one over there. So we did other wise we'd of been off home. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_b Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 [quote name='BassBunny' timestamp='1342947083' post='1742949'] ....Most of the issues with Limiters is poor installation..... [/quote] ....and possibly playing too loud? Most of the very loud bands that I've played with have been run by guitarists who are that loud for no reason other than "because they can"! Bands like this spoil things for the rest of us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurbs Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 I agree. Too many bands use volume either to massage their egos or cover up sloppy playing. There is no reason why 90dB is not a reasonable volume level for any band to play within. Any louder and the band is inflicting damage on themselves and the audience. Oh, and drums can be played quietly, you just need a decent drummer. I'll get my coat! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
musophilr Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 But a trumpet can easily trip a noise limiter on its own with no help from amplification. 'Tis not just a question of guitarists (or even drummers) always being too loud - although I accept that a lot of them are. Noise limiters are not a realistic solution to the problem (however you try to define it); my sympathies are with them that refuse to play gigs with a noise limiter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Vader Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 I've played with noise limiters that were set off by the audience applauding too loudly. Also one that I tripped during a soundcheck by singing too loud before the mic had been turned on. Quality installations those. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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