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Thomann prices?

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1 minute ago, paul_c2 said:

But that's due to a different issue.

For sure, but it was the case at the time and I was glad to be able to source the product from somewhere. My point was that, sometimes, Thomann is/was the only option.

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4 hours ago, Al Krow said:

Their loss. If our money's not good enough for them, I'll buy elsewhere. End of 😉

This will also include items coming from around the world that may come VIA the EU, not always FROM the EU.

UK based manufacturers may not have a great number of options available when buying components.

In short, the UK has shrunk it's access to the world's market, not expanded it as promised.

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If Thomann stop selling to the UK, the next largest stockist of Harley Benton is ' @stewblacks Bass Emporium', so all is not lost. 

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2 minutes ago, Maude said:

If Thomann stop selling to the UK, the next largest stockist of Harley Benton is ' @stewblacks Bass Emporium', so all is not lost. 

The same goes for Zoom MS-60Bs. Actually Stew's collection is slightly bigger than Thomann's...

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4 hours ago, Steve Browning said:

That Scandinavian company has got it wrong. They will only need a UK VAT registration if they source and deliver within the UK. They won't be able to register in the UK if they just sell to the UK.

Have you a source for that statement..? I'm no expert, but have read this (and maybe got it wrong, of course...)...

Changes to VAT treatment of overseas goods sold to customers from 1 January 2021 ...


...
For goods sent from overseas and sold directly to UK consumers without OMP involvement, the overseas seller will be required to register and account for the VAT to HMRC.
...

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1 hour ago, BigRedX said:

So long as you are happy with "Assembled in Britain" at best.

Yep, perfectly happy with that thanks. Even if it is just "assembled" the people doing the assembly are in jobs, paying taxes and supporting their families.

 

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Posted (edited)
22 minutes ago, Grangur said:

This will also include items coming from around the world that may come VIA the EU, not always FROM the EU.

UK based manufacturers may not have a great number of options available when buying components.

In short, the UK has shrunk it's access to the world's market, not expanded it as promised.

What had you got in mind in relation to items coming only via the EU?

But if EU retailers really don't want our money, I'm sure I'll be able to find something else to spend it on...apparently Yorkshire Gold tea is a good way to deplete our bank accounts.

Edited by Al Krow

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There's a guy in Leicester who has stockpiled Sansamps...

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Just now, Stub Mandrel said:

There's a guy in Leicester who has stockpiled Sansamps...

Sang to “There’s a Guy Works Down the Chip Shop Swears He’s Elvis”

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6 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

What had you got in mind in relation to items coming only via the EU?

But if EU retailers really don't want our money, I'm sure I'll be able to find something else to spend it on...apparently Yorkshire Gold tea is a good way to deplete our bank accounts.

Not all goods coming into the UK are consumer goods. You need to think about the wider picture.

My employer, a electrical equipment manufacturer based in Leeds, buys components from China and the East, but they get shipped in, in containers from the EU.

The other issue is many UK manufacturers and suppliers of UK made/grown goods will be depending on EU carriers coming to UK to take their goods over to Europe - this is because carriers don't only take goods one way. They bring goods and collect British goods to take back with them to make the trip worth doing.

Sure you can buy a different brand of tea. Have you tried finding an alternative source of electronic assemblies that needs to be of a given design and size  as well as fitting a budget?

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12 minutes ago, EBS_freak said:

Sang to “There’s a Guy Works Down the Chip Shop Swears He’s Elvis”

Well he's definitely a liar. 

 

Allegedly. 😉

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17 minutes ago, Grangur said:

Not all goods coming into the UK are consumer goods. You need to think about the wider picture.

My employer, a electrical equipment manufacturer based in Leeds, buys components from China and the East, but they get shipped in, in containers from the EU.

The other issue is many UK manufacturers and suppliers of UK made/grown goods will be depending on EU carriers coming to UK to take their goods over to Europe - this is because carriers don't only take goods one way. They bring goods and collect British goods to take back with them to make the trip worth doing.

Sure you can buy a different brand of tea. Have you tried finding an alternative source of electronic assemblies that needs to be of a given design and size  as well as fitting a budget?

Shh. That doesn’t fit the argument.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Grangur said:

Not all goods coming into the UK are consumer goods. You need to think about the wider picture.

My employer, a electrical equipment manufacturer based in Leeds, buys components from China and the East, but they get shipped in, in containers from the EU.

The other issue is many UK manufacturers and suppliers of UK made/grown goods will be depending on EU carriers coming to UK to take their goods over to Europe - this is because carriers don't only take goods one way. They bring goods and collect British goods to take back with them to make the trip worth doing.

Sure you can buy a different brand of tea. Have you tried finding an alternative source of electronic assemblies that needs to be of a given design and size  as well as fitting a budget?

The irony of your example is that China trades with the EU on WTO terms i.e. with customs barriers and taxes which importers in the EU and exporters in China (and vice versa - as you rightly say they will need to have stuff to take back to make the several thousand mile trip worth while) have totally got their heads around.

But EU trading with the UK with ZERO tariffs on goods over much shorter distances is going to be a massive issue? Nah, I don't buy that line of argument at all.

You do realise the UK already does more trade with rest of the world than it does with the EU and often on basic WTO terms? Those businesses involved in import / export have all managed to get their heads around the relevant Customs forms.

I think you are massively underestimating the ability of businesses to learn and adapt. And if they don't, others happily will.

It's going to be just fine.

Edited by Al Krow
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Posted (edited)

There are reasons why China can trade with the EU on WTO terms.

For example, while I know that wages in China are increasing, the average wage for a factory worker in Germany is currently 2.3 times that of an equivalent worker in China. Plus other production costs will be much cheaper and China will produce at a scale that would be unheard of in Europe. 

Edited by peteb
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9 hours ago, taunton-hobbit said:

Yup, saw this about ten min ago, was going to post it.......

......the UK world is going to be stuffed with these sort of problems,

all of which will get sorted out - eventually

(whether or not that happens in my lifetime is another matter)

😎

Will they get sorted out? I guess these companies have looked at how much the UK market is worth to them, and decided it’s just not worth the hassle. They wouldn’t have decided not to sell to the UK if they were making a lot of money from us.

The country is losing billions of pounds from the financial markets too.

https://www.ft.com/content/a434b756-afe0-454d-9d70-ef2d42ea8d55

 

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1 hour ago, ambient said:

Will they get sorted out? I guess these companies have looked at how much the UK market is worth to them, and decided it’s just not worth the hassle. They wouldn’t have decided not to sell to the UK if they were making a lot of money from us.

The country is losing billions of pounds from the financial markets too.

https://www.ft.com/content/a434b756-afe0-454d-9d70-ef2d42ea8d55

 

Its 5th Jan and the rules were finalised about 10 days ago. They'll catch up, in due course; or the rules will be tweaked if there is a significant negative impact in them. 

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6 hours ago, Al Krow said:

The irony of your example is that China trades with the EU on WTO terms i.e. with customs barriers and taxes which importers in the EU and exporters in China (and vice versa - as you rightly say they will need to have stuff to take back to make the several thousand mile trip worth while) have totally got their heads around.

But EU trading with the UK with ZERO tariffs on goods over much shorter distances is going to be a massive issue? Nah, I don't buy that line of argument at all.

You do realise the UK already does more trade with rest of the world than it does with the EU and often on basic WTO terms? Those businesses involved in import / export have all managed to get their heads around the relevant Customs forms.

I think you are massively underestimating the ability of businesses to learn and adapt. And if they don't, others happily will.

It's going to be just fine.

I'm far from an expert, though I've worked in 3 electronics companies buying heavily from China and the EU. China's and our trading relationship with the EU is apples and oranges. China/EU trade is facilitated by a colossal industry of brokers, middlemen and importers/exporters who deal with the bureaucracy. UK/rest of EU trade was much more direct, because it could be.

Yes we've dealt with the rest of the world for years, but for the end consumer importing stuff from the rest of the world has been prohibitively expensive for all those years too. America, Australia, Japan etc. Places like thomann, gear4music and countless other businesses across all sectors were built around the assumption that this would never happen. For them, there is only damage control, and we as consumers are only ever going to have less than we did before.

Also worth pointing out that yes, businesses trade with the rest of the world more than the EU but its 51.1% to 48.9% so we're still talking about basically half of the average companies business being affected.

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10 hours ago, Al Krow said:

You do realise the UK already does more trade with rest of the world than it does with the EU and often on basic WTO terms?

You’ve meantioned this a couple of times now - what’s the source?
does it include services? Does the axel of a BMW mini crossing the channel a few times count as trade, or is that just a company moving an asset over the border?  Is it looking at overall balance of trade - or as you are responding to @Grangur are you just referring to UK manufacturing export? 

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Posted (edited)

I think there are two separate points here:

1) about supply chains - which is the point Grangur made, where businesses will simply need to get used to filling out an additional Customs form when routing via the EU (obviously they are doing this for the rest of the world already);

2) retail consumption for us BCers via the likes of Thomann (which is what this thread is about). 

Agreed that Bax, Thomann etc. may decide not to sell to the UK - my wager is that they probably still will, but let's see.

If they don't want our money there is no shortage of UK bass online retailers and frankly other products for us to spend our money on. 

@LukeFRC - the UK's trade balance with each nation is well documented. Just search online. 

Edited by Al Krow

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14 hours ago, Al Krow said:

But Woody, I don't think your comment is right: there are still a bunch of decent music stores open all around the country.

Maybe thats true - I have no idea whey any of them within 50 miles of me are though, so online is definately fastest.

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31 minutes ago, LukeFRC said:

You’ve meantioned this a couple of times now - what’s the source?
does it include services? Does the axel of a BMW mini crossing the channel a few times count as trade, or is that just a company moving an asset over the border?  Is it looking at overall balance of trade - or as you are responding to @Grangur are you just referring to UK manufacturing export? 

Yes. I'd appreciate some more clarity. Is it being stated that the EU trades on WTO terms with some countries (I'm talking pre-Brexit here)? I am genuinely interested because I haven't looked at it myself (had no need).

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15 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

If they don't want our money there is no shortage of UK bass online retailers and frankly other products for us to spend our money on. 

It's not just a question of not wanting our money! It's whether the extra barriers that the UK Government have put in place make it still worthwhile to trade with us!

For Thomann, as the world's biggest (probably!) musical instrument retailer they already have the UK Vat registration and the means to deal with that. They do enough business in the UK and have the mechanisms in place to keep trading with UK consumers profitable.

But for smaller sellers that's not necessarily the case; firstly they've got to register with HMRC for VAT. They've got to take VAT from UK customers, do a VAT return to HMRC quarterly and pay their UK VAT bill. That's all fine if you're a UK business (arguably!), but as, say, a German business they already have to do all that with the German BZst - doing the same thing for another country for a few grand is probably not worth their while! Not only that there's also a sense of rejection on the continent - our Government hasn't really made itself friendworthy with some of its actions - people think "why should we bother with them if they're not interested in us?"

Then businesses like ours will miss out... Our little orchid supplier, who sell us all sorts of exciting varieties that you just can't get from UK growers, doesn't think it's worthwhile. Our lovely French homeware supplier, who sells us all those particularly Gallic trays and cups, isn't interested either. We'll briefly suffer in the short term - our customers will miss those bits'n'bobs you couldn't get elsewhere - and we'll find something hopefully new and interesting instead, but the real question is why? For what? Have we actually gained anything at all, or is it just about a small section of or society now having the illusion of Empire Rebirth?

 

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5 minutes ago, Leonard Smalls said:

It's not just a question of not wanting our money! It's whether the extra barriers that the UK Government have put in place make it still worthwhile to trade with us!

For Thomann, as the world's biggest (probably!) musical instrument retailer they already have the UK Vat registration and the means to deal with that. They do enough business in the UK and have the mechanisms in place to keep trading with UK consumers profitable.

But for smaller sellers that's not necessarily the case; firstly they've got to register with HMRC for VAT. They've got to take VAT from UK customers, do a VAT return to HMRC quarterly and pay their UK VAT bill. That's all fine if you're a UK business (arguably!), but as, say, a German business they already have to do all that with the German BZst - doing the same thing for another country for a few grand is probably not worth their while! Not only that there's also a sense of rejection on the continent - our Government hasn't really made itself friendworthy with some of its actions - people think "why should we bother with them if they're not interested in us?"

Then businesses like ours will miss out... Our little orchid supplier, who sell us all sorts of exciting varieties that you just can't get from UK growers, doesn't think it's worthwhile. Our lovely French homeware supplier, who sells us all those particularly Gallic trays and cups, isn't interested either. We'll briefly suffer in the short term - our customers will miss those bits'n'bobs you couldn't get elsewhere - and we'll find something hopefully new and interesting instead, but the real question is why? For what? Have we actually gained anything at all, or is it just about a small section of or society now having the illusion of Empire Rebirth?

 

The latest HMRC guidance states that the responsibility for VAT on small consignments (under £135) rests with the seller at the point of sale. I believe that will mean German VAT. The UK registration was the result of distance selling, which is an EU concept. I'll find the document again and post it. It was updated on 31/12.

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8 minutes ago, Steve Browning said:

he latest HMRC guidance states that the responsibility for VAT on small consignments (under £135) rests with the seller at the point of sale. I believe that will mean German VAT. The UK registration was the result of distance selling, which is an EU concept. I'll find the document again and post it. It was updated on 31/12.

For goods under £135 to a non=VAT registered UK business/person then:

 

To charge and account for VAT the seller will need to:

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/vat-and-overseas-goods-sold-directly-to-customers-in-the-uk

 

That doesn't sound like German VAT!

And for non-Uk seller to UK VAT registered business for goods under £135:

Business to business sales to UK VAT-registered customers

The seller will not need to charge and account for VAT if the customer gives them their VAT registration number. The seller can confirm it’s correct using the online service.

The seller can add a note to the invoice (for example, by writing ‘reverse charge: customer to account for VAT to HMRC’) then send it to the UK business customer.

The business customer will then be responsible for accounting for any VAT due on their VAT Return, if the goods are supplied in:

In both cases, the seller will be able to recover the VAT as input tax on the same VAT Return under normal VAT recovery rules.

Sellers do not have to register for VAT if they only sell goods that are outside the UK at the point of sale to UK VAT-registered business

 

 

For transactions over £135 it appears we'd need to become an importer, use an agent or pay VAT there and then. Now our European suppliers don't want the extra grief of dealing with a myriad of tax rules they never had to before, and we're a shop who already has to do enough VAT/TAX/Accounts submitting. We don't need more red tape!

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/vat-imports-acquisitions-and-purchases-from-abroad

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Its what businesses have always been crying out for, more red tape. I am glad the government have finally listened.

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