Should I feel guilty?

[lownote]

I am engrossed in Mark Smith's Walking Bass course. It is is very deep and complicated for a simple person.  All 62 videos of it.

But then I started to notice something reassuring.  You can actually play almost anything and get away with it.

Let me explain...

You set out to join the dots between chords tones. There are four of those. Your bass line gets smoother as you introduce scale notes, and there are lots more of those. It gets smoother still as you introduce chromatics, and that's almost everything else.

That's when I realised...

It doesn't matter what note you play.

So now I happily play faux-walking bass, concentrating only on hitting the beat and leaping up and down the fretboard in a confident looking manner, playing largely random notes.  

Looks good,  sounds good (helps to play fretless with dull flats).  No effort to learn. And I recently played just like that in a jazz group for an evening just to prove my theory.  I was complimented.... 

So am I bad? 

 

Edited October 24, 2019 by lownote12

[skidder652003]

as the saying goes, "walking jazz bass lines, any old sh*te played with a straight face"

On the flip side I love walking jazz bass line, just wish I could play some!

Edited October 24, 2019 by skidder652003

[Pseudonym]

22 minutes ago, lownote12 said:

Looks good,  sounds good.  No effort to learn. And I recently played just like that in a jazz group for an evening just to prove my theory.  I was complimented.... 

So am I bad?

The only reason for you to feel guilty is if it will turn you into a roiling cauldron of creative angst, and/or help biographers to explain your legendary status in years to come.

Otherwise, enjoy the plaudits and the epiphany. If it works, it works. If at any point it goes seriously pear-shaped, double points for stopping dead and glaring at the band like it's all their fault.

In all seriousness, though, maybe you have a genuine knack for finding the right "largely random" notes.

[Newfoundfreedom]

56 minutes ago, lownote12 said:

 

It doesn't matter what note you play.

largely random notes.  

jazz 

 

 

The clue is in the original post. 

[Sibob]

On a serious note (no pun intended), I suppose it depends who your audience is. If it’s jazz musicians, at worst you’ll look like a blagger who doesn’t know what they’re doing, at best you’ll look like someone who is un-musical (poor note choices).

Contrary to what people think/hear, there’s nothing random about Jazz, 9.5 times out of 10, each note, whether you like it or not, will be a considered harmonic choice by that musician.

So random to some people, extremely considered choices to others. So yes, depends on your audience, and of course, how important your musical output is to you 🙂

Si

Edited October 24, 2019 by Sibob

[chris_b]

1 hour ago, lownote12 said:

That's when I realised...

It doesn't matter what note you play.

If you are playing at a certain level you might not get away with it, but at my level. . . . it was explained to me by a jazz bassist, "Play a different note every beat. You're either playing the right note, a harmony to it, or a passing note". I have done this on gigs and it works.

[Hellzero]

When asked, say you were playing in a modal way. This will end the conversation and you'll be considered a true genius.

Almost nobody will ever try to argue as modal playing is a total mystery to most of the musicians.

And if it doesn't seem to work, there still is the "you know free jazz is quite hard to explain" sentence.

Or use the George Benson technique, repeat your mistakes as they will then become an integral part of the way the notes were chosen. Not a mistake anymore, but a very deeply thought approach.

Isn't life beautiful ? 😁

[DanOwens]

I started to study Django Reinhardt's later playing when he was incorporating elements of bop-esque styles into his performance. He diverted away from the scales he used earlier and started to use other notes; I wanted to know what notes. It turns out that the explanation of what he was doing is really interesting, but also incredibly dense. He played by ear, but the analyses suggest all sorts of modal, augmented, jazzy jazzness. 

I came to the notion that there was a line with consonant chord tones at one end and dissonant microtonal chromaticism at the other. All playing just explores that line, not just jazz. However, your intention is clear to anyone who is listening and a happy accident might sound great, but it is obviously a happy accident to the listener. 

There's that Ray Brown BBC masterclass on youtube where a player walks this tasty line that sounds like a perfect walking bass line, and Brown just points out all she's doing is walking chromatically to the tonic. Well I thought it sounded great!

[Teebs]

5 hours ago, lownote12 said:

I recently played just like that in a jazz group for an evening just to prove my theory.  I was complimented.... 

So am I bad? 

 

Yes - you are wicked!

But also a genius!

[visog]

I suspect it sounds ok because you're new to the idiom and maybe your rhythm and swing is doing the heavy lifting. I suspect that the more you get into it, the more you'll hear some lines working better than others and those are the ones where you start to emphasise and anticipate the chord tones. Basically your ear will get sharper. Here's Jeff Berlin schooling a student on this very topic...

 

[Jus Lukin]

-

Edited March 4, 2022 by Jus Lukin

[Monkey Steve]

@lownote12 you sir have stumbled upon a playing method that I like to refer to as Jazz Odyssey

This was about 30 years ago, and I stumbled across it in a similar manner to you, albeit that I was at that time very new to playing the bass.  For me it was just getting used to where the notes were on the fretboard and how to play different scales.  I've never been one for learning to play songs unless I need to know them for a band, so I'd spend hours noodling away along to records just to see what fitted and what didn't

And I totally agree that often it doesn't matter what you play, as long as it's in the right key.

The downside was that this bled over into what i was playing when I was in my first band - far too busy and didn't suit the songs at all

[lownote]

I take the point made by several that jazz 'grownups' may spot my fraud.  But that assumes there's one correct way to do things that they're using as a benchmark. Part of my point, rooted in what I understand of Smith's teaching, is that walking should be improv - choosing between options. And apparently there are many many perfectly valid options, including little phrases that have no provenance other than that Smith says they're useful little licks. If between them useful little licks, chord tones, scale tones, adapted scale tones and diatonic and chromatic passing notes cover every note between point A and point B (and point A and point B can be any note you fancy - root, third, fifth, seventh) then them ol' jazz buffs gonna have a hard time proving me wrong.  Not standing up for youthful rebellion here, just saying.       

Edited October 24, 2019 by lownote12

[jrixn1]

Here's an example of someone walking by playing a lot of random notes, approximately in the correct key, and approximately in time - and it's awful.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lFxGBB4UGU
 

Edited October 24, 2019 by jrixn1

[DanOwens]

51 minutes ago, jrixn1 said:

Here's an example of someone walking by playing a lot of random notes, approximately in the correct key, and approximately in time - and it's awful.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lFxGBB4UGU
 

An excellent example, as pretty much everyone I know (including musicians) don't hear a single problem with the bass line, whereas most of us on BC consider this a crime against bass.

[Jus Lukin]

-

Edited March 4, 2022 by Jus Lukin

[Bassfinger]

6 hours ago, Sibob said:

On a serious note (no pun intended), I suppose it depends who your audience is. If it’s jazz musicians, at worst you’ll look like a blagger who doesn’t know what they’re doing..

So, you're saying he would fit right in then?

[Sibob]

29 minutes ago, Bassfinger said:

So, you're saying he would fit right in then?

While I appreciate the humour (😉), in the context of the thread, I’m suggesting he’d stick out like a sore thumb. 

Si

[Stub Mandrel]

My advice, puny as it is, is that what matters is having a feel for what fits. You don't need to be immersed in theory (although it can open up new avenues) you just need to be able to vary what you do. One obvious thing is having a sense for major versus minor without having to see it written down, using the seventh to lead into a chord change and learn some other runs that naturally lead to different chords.

You can also practice things like diminished chords - nothing oozes 'sophisticated jazz dude' like playing a slow descending diminished chord ;-), playing the thirds or fifths  instead of the root.

That's pretty much where my theory runs out, but you can always reply to criticism with obscure comments like "The eleventh note is often omitted from a thirteenth chord with a flatted ninth".

[Burns-bass]

This is a good tongue in cheek thread. And I like it.

If there’s a logic it’s that you’re playing on instinct rathe mr than being conscious of the note choices. I spoke with an incredible player who was cranking out BeBop standards at 300bpm and he admitted that “at that speed there’s very little music!”.

You’ll surely need to know your stuff before you start soloing. 

And serious jazzers are usually (not not always) happy and supportive and would welcome the chance to offer some advice on your playing rather than call you out for being a fraud. 

[Bassfinger]

56 minutes ago, Sibob said:

While I appreciate the humour (😉), in the context of the thread, I’m suggesting he’d stick out like a sore thumb. 

Si

It's all in the ear of the beholder.  If it sounds good then no ones opinion is any more valid than anyone elses, and it is possible to sound good without necessarily conforming to genre rules and norms. 

I've been doing some walking myself, quite by accident while messing about and twiddling some little fills between changes.  It doesn't follow any written rule, any structure that I'm aware of, but the lad I play with is a proper guitar teacher and he nods along quite happily with it.  If some self appointed, pipe smoking, velvet jacketed, Jazz Club wannabe doesn't like it he's probably in a minority anyway, so who cares what they think? Some people are so far up their own behinds with theory they've probably forgotten what an actual tune sounds like.

@lownote12 should carry on doing whatever the hell he likes.  If it works for him, great.  If no one else is throwing themselves out the window in terror while he plays, then so much the better.

Edited October 24, 2019 by Bassfinger

[Twigman]

Yes you should feel guilty - isn't that what the catholic church teaches? The whole of your life is run on guilt.

If you feel no guilt you're not doing it right

 

Oh sorry I shouldn't bring religion into things.

Edited October 24, 2019 by Twigman

[Sibob]

13 minutes ago, Bassfinger said:

It's all in the ear of the beholder.  If it sounds good then no ones opinion is any more valid than anyone elses, and it is possible to sound good without necessarily conforming to genre rules and norms. 

I've been doing some walking myself, quite by accident while messing about and twiddling some little fills between changes.  It doesn't follow any written rule, any structure that I'm aware of, but the lad I play with is a proper guitar teacher and he nods along quite happily with it.  If some self appointed, pipe smoking, velvet jacketed, Jazz Club wannabe doesn't like it he's probably in a minority anyway, so who cares what they think? Some people are so far up their own behinds with theory they've probably forgotten what an actual tune sounds like.

@lownote12 should carry on doing whatever the hell he likes.  If it works for him, great.  If no one else is throwing themselves out the window in terror while he plays, then so much the better.

Of course! You’re mistaking what i’m saying as ‘what should it shouldn’t happen’. I fake walking all the time, with some relatively rudimentary chordal structure knowledge. My point was simply that if one wants to increase their musicality (because you’ll almost always sound more musical if you know what you’re doing), or if you’re interested in getting more gigs with good musicians, then having them listen to you and hear that you know what you're doing will certainly help. Even if no-one knows, but it’s important for YOU to feel what you’re doing is genuine, then carry on learning and applying that knowledge.

If none of that matters and it suits someone to fake something to a degree, and still sound fine doing that to jo-bloggs, then brilliant, more power to them 🙂

Si

[lownote]

Just for the record I have blocked in much of the next 12 months in my diary to trying to learn walking bass properly, enriching Mark Smith, Todd Johnson, Geoff Chalmers and various other pedagogues in the process.  I'm sure they'll all put me straight.  

[Barking Spiders]

9 hours ago, lownote12 said:

I am engrossed in Mark Smith's Walking Bass course. It is is very deep and complicated for a simple person.  All 62 videos of it.

But then I started to notice something reassuring.  You can actually play almost anything and get away with it.

Let me explain...

You set out to join the dots between chords tones. There are four of those. Your bass line gets smoother as you introduce scale notes, and there are lots more of those. It gets smoother still as you introduce chromatics, and that's almost everything else.

That's when I realised...

It doesn't matter what note you play.

So now I happily play faux-walking bass, concentrating only on hitting the beat and leaping up and down the fretboard in a confident looking manner, playing largely random notes.  

Looks good,  sounds good (helps to play fretless with dull flats).  No effort to learn. And I recently played just like that in a jazz group for an evening just to prove my theory.  I was complimented.... 

So am I bad? 

 

What you've said there sounds far too technical for me. I got as far as 'dots' and then you lost me  😉. But I get the gist of it and think I agree 👍