Squier is not Fender, Epiphone is not Gibson

[SH73]

[quote name='mcnach' timestamp='1479342331' post='3175882']


100% agreed.

There's nothing wrong with a Squier and it's a very silly thing to do to advertise it as a Fender. Just like it'd be silly to advertise a Skoda as an Audi because both companies belong to the same group and even share some design and components...


[/quote]


I was going to say this. But in reality Skoda is more reliable nowadays.....

[bazzbass]

[quote name='mcnach' timestamp='1479342331' post='3175882']
100% agreed.

There's nothing wrong with a Squier and it's a very silly thing to do to advertise it as a Fender. Just like it'd be silly to advertise a Skoda as an Audi because both companies belong to the same group and even share some design and components...
[/quote]

except Squier is made by Fender, so it is a Fender product. Skoda is not made by Audi,they just share parent company

Not saying it's OK to call a Squier a Fender, but if they call it a "Squier by Fender" I think that's OK.

[stingrayPete1977]

I like all my basses to be constructed in California, keeps it simple.

[SH73]

[quote name='bazztard' timestamp='1479364077' post='3175924']


except Squier is made by Fender, so it is a Fender product. Skoda is not made by Audi,they just share parent company

Not saying it's OK to call a Squier a Fender, but if they call it a "Squier by Fender" I think that's OK.
[/quote]
The point is, most people who sell Squier they advertise it as Fender.
Imagine a Bakery store but they only sell rolls but no bread. The same ingredients though different shape and taste.

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='bazztard' timestamp='1479364077' post='3175924']


except Squier is made by Fender, so it is a Fender product. Skoda is not made by Audi,they just share parent company

Not saying it's OK to call a Squier a Fender, but if they call it a "Squier by Fender" I think that's OK.
[/quote]

Well the A3 is built in Brazil alongside the Skoda citigo amongst many others and the Q7 is built at the SEAT factory in Barcelona alongside the SEAT/Skoda/VW cars so I'd have to disagree?

I own two VWs neither were built in Germany, are they still VWs?

[Beer of the Bass]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1479383679' post='3176078']
I like all my basses to be constructed in California, keeps it simple.
[/quote]

Might be tricky with the double bass! Though for EUB, Azola would work.

[PaulWarning]

I suppose you could take it further and say nobody should advertise a Precision bass as a Precision bass copy, would it be ok to say Squier designed by Fender? I know everybody on here knows that but someone putting their toe into the bass waters might not

[stingrayPete1977]

I'm not certain where mine was built, Romania I think, all the rest are Osbipo or Corona though

[Cat Burrito]

It really doesn't bother me - the early Epiphones are just Epiphones (I own a Sorrento and a Emperor, neither have ever been done by Gibson) but once Gibson bought up Epiphone the early models had Epiphone by Gibson on the headstock, all in the same sized font. I played an Epiphone T-bird against my Gibson recently and although mine was better, it wasn't 5 times better.

Same with Squier (not the font size though). And whilst we are at it the Electromatic range by Gretsch. It's at best a mild irritation when searching EBay but that is all.

Sorry to go against the grain here.

[bonzodog]

Fender even do it themselves. On their web site if you search for a particular bass ie jazz then it mixes all the squiers with all the other fenders in the search results.

[gareth]

[quote name='bazztard' timestamp='1479364077' post='3175924']


except Squier is made by Fender, so it is a Fender product. Skoda is not made by Audi,they just share parent company

Not saying it's OK to call a Squier a Fender, but if they call it a "Squier by Fender" I think that's OK.
[/quote]i hear the Audi a1 has a scoda engine

[cameltoe]

[quote name='Twigman' timestamp='1479322877' post='3175680']
Squier(Japan) is Fender though........

The Japanese Squiers really were Fenders (IMO) - I'm sure they randomly decided whether to stick Fender or Squier badges on them
[/quote]

For a time I think this was pretty much correct. I know the JV domestic series had different price points with the domestic range badged as Fender and the exports marked as Squier.

I've played both Fender and Squier badged MIJ E-Series (1984-89 ish) and they were almost exactly the same spec and almost identical to play, with the Squier slightly edging it.

I guess it depends how authentic you really want to be- are the MIJ's strictly Fenders? MIM? Chinese? Strictly speaking there's no reason a Chinese Fender should be any more 'a Fender' than a Chinese Squier.

[BassBunny]

I think there is a subtle difference in the Fender/Squire and Gibson/Epiphone scenarios.
Fender set up Squire as a their budget line whereas Gibson bought Epiphone, an existing manufacturer, who made stunning instruments in the USA and made it their budget line by moving the production to Korea.

[spectoremg]

[quote name='Graham' timestamp='1479298143' post='3175399']
I got told off by Ebay for doing that with a Mayones I was selling a few years ago, I'd advertised it as "like Warwick/Spector" in the title, in order to attract more people who'd not heard of Mayones. i had to watch a video pointing out this was in breach of their terms and conditions before I could list anything again, with the suggestion that if I did it again they could ban me from Ebay.
[/quote]Maybe they could clean their act up. When I want an effing amp cover for something I'll search for it - I don't need them filling up my actual search.

[BassBunny]

[quote name='gareth' timestamp='1479403227' post='3176311']
i hear the Audi a1 has a scoda engine
[/quote]
Audi and Skoda is part of VW/Audi so you get the same engine, floorpan, gearbox etc. in either a VW, Audi, Skoda or SEAT. Just different badging.

[paul_c2]

[quote name='cameltoe' timestamp='1479425747' post='3176537']
For a time I think this was pretty much correct. I know the JV domestic series had different price points with the domestic range badged as Fender and the exports marked as Squier.

I've played both Fender and Squier badged MIJ E-Series (1984-89 ish) and they were almost exactly the same spec and almost identical to play, with the Squier slightly edging it.

I guess it depends how authentic you really want to be- are the MIJ's strictly Fenders? MIM? Chinese? Strictly speaking there's no reason a Chinese Fender should be any more 'a Fender' than a Chinese Squier.
[/quote]

There's good and bad Squiers though. There's good and bad Fenders too....but overall, there's more good ones than bad. I guess there's a little bit of overlap in today's range; and if you take into account secondhand too, the early Japanese Squier stuff was/is better than certain Fenders. I've limited experience with them but I've always been able to tell from playability, but not put my finger on why it should be so, that the Fender was the better instrument.

[skankdelvar]

Gibson and Epiphone were deadly rivals in the guitar market from 1931 onwards. Following boardroom battles, labour problems and declining product quality in the mid 1950's Epiphone approached Gibson to discuss a buy-out. In 1957 Gibson took control and shifted Epiphone guitar production to the Gibson factories. The benefit to Gibson was that it permitted them to establish a second network of dealerships into which they could sell Epiphone archtops and solids.

And for a while, all went well. From 1957 until 1970 Gibson made and sold Epiphone archtops to existing and new designs (including the Casino as favoured by the Beatles and the Stones) and solid bodies like the Coronet which filled the Les Paul Junior niche. A typical 'analogy' was the Epiphone Texan to the Gibson J45, likewise the Rivoli bass to the Gibson EB2.

In 1970 declining sales and increasing costs ended the manufacture of US Epiphones. Production was switched to Japan where certain popular models were manufactured alongside re-badged existing Matsumoto designs.

Sixteen years later in 1986 Henry Juskiewicz ([i]spit[/i]) went to Korea with the notion of mating the Epiphone headstock with Gibson solid bodies (Les Pauls, SG's) and selling them at competitive prices. And that's where we are today, allowing for some nice Epiphone reissues as a sort of sideline.

[cameltoe]

[quote name='paul_c2' timestamp='1479431104' post='3176566']


There's good and bad Squiers though. There's good and bad Fenders too....but overall, there's more good ones than bad. I guess there's a little bit of overlap in today's range; and if you take into account secondhand too, the early Japanese Squier stuff was/is better than certain Fenders. I've limited experience with them but I've always been able to tell from playability, but not put my finger on why it should be so, that the Fender was the better instrument.
[/quote]

Are we talking about differentiating the two just in terms of pricing and quality though?

Squier has changed in recent years from essentially a couple of budget copies of US Fender models to a range all in itself. There are cheap and nasty Squiers kicking around today, but the Classic Vibe series are pretty much as good as any mid-price Fender.

Which leads me on to my point, isn't a Chinese 'Fender' still just a copy in itself? Yes ok they build them to a slightly higher price point and they've used a Fender logo on the headstock, but essentially it's still just a cheaper copy of what is coming out of Corona.

[mcnach]

[quote name='cameltoe' timestamp='1479425747' post='3176537']
For a time I think this was pretty much correct. I know the JV domestic series had different price points with the domestic range badged as Fender and the exports marked as Squier.

I've played both Fender and Squier badged MIJ E-Series (1984-89 ish) and they were almost exactly the same spec and almost identical to play, with the Squier slightly edging it.

I guess it depends how authentic you really want to be- are the MIJ's strictly Fenders? MIM? Chinese? Strictly speaking there's no reason a Chinese Fender should be any more 'a Fender' than a Chinese Squier.
[/quote]

The thing is, on an ad title, you want to see an accurate description without superfluous details. Otherwise searching becomes very inaccurate, and nobody who wants a Fender will stop to buy the Squier... unless you search for both, or the actual guitar model name, or... but you have options, if the titles are accurate. Does it have a big Fender logo? (from factory )Then call it a Fender. Is it just mentioned in smaller font? Then tell me what the big logo says. Simples

Now, on the description... feel free to tell me all about it and its heritage and mention Fender as much as you like.

You may disagree, of course, but you'd be wrong

Edit/disclaimer: and none of my arguments reflect a judgement on Squier's quality or anything. I've owned a bunch of Jazz basses, for instance. In the past 12 months I have sold 2 Fender 75RI, 1 Fender roadworn, and I'm about to sell my third 75RI. I'm only keeping one Jazz bass. Well, two... one just for sentimental reasons because it was my first real bass made by Vintage. It plays and sounds great (changed pickups) but the neck is far too thin even for a Jazz... I have gigged with it but not my favourite bass to play. The Jazz I'm unlikely to sell is... a '94 Korean Squier with plywood body and a delicious neck that just sounds great (Area J pickups). I have nothing against Squier, I have a couple of other Squiers that are pretty cool.

Edited November 18, 2016 by mcnach

[mcnach]

[quote name='BassBunny' timestamp='1479426535' post='3176546']
Audi and Skoda is part of VW/Audi so you get the same engine, floorpan, gearbox etc. in either a VW, Audi, Skoda or SEAT. Just different badging.
[/quote]

They're all related and much of it shared, but there are subtle differences which makes the cars drive/feel differently. My A3 and my friends Octavia both have the same 1.4 TFSI engine, but the gearbox is clearly different having driven both, with different ratios etc. So much of it is interchangeable, but they don't really build one model just like the other. Which is good as it gives you different options to choose from (I'm not talking about optional equipment etc, but the basic car). Similar my sister's Seat Leon, a couple of years older than my A3 but from the same generation, handles completely different too.

Again, not saying which one is better... they're just different.

[Ghost_Bass]

[quote name='Mornats' timestamp='1479328044' post='3175741']
There's a bass on this page that caught my eye initially as I was interested in a Fender VM jazz that looked like my Squier VM Jazz: [url="http://www.bassdirect.co.uk/bass_guitar_specialists/Fender_Stock.html"]http://www.bassdirec...nder_Stock.html[/url]
[/quote]

I'm also a bit anoyed by people polishing their sales adds with clever titles but that's to be expected. I allways try to think that the person on the other side of the internet might not be very knowledgeable of music instruments and brands and may be fooled by the small Fender logo on the headstock (it could be true, on 2% of the listings...)

But this is way more serious IMO, how is it possible that a respectable establishment such as Bass Direct would advertise Squiers as Fenders? They know their stuff and are professionals, this shouldn't happen as it can in deed fool anyone more distracted that is relying on the shop's reputation to sell him the product they advertise. If you open the link for the bass it says "[color=#000000][font=Helvetica-Bold, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif][b]Fender Squier Vintage Modified Jazz 70s[size=3][b]"... [/b][/size][/b][/font][/color]I would buy it as being a real Fender if i didn't knew any better.

And i read on the posts that you're paying more attention to VW Group cars! Haven't you seen this?

[Painy]

[quote name='cameltoe' timestamp='1479425747' post='3176537']


Strictly speaking there's no reason a Chinese Fender should be any more 'a Fender' than a Chinese Squier.
[/quote]

There is one thing at least. Fender use a thicker slab of wood for the bodies than Squier and this is true wherever they're manufactured so the body of my Chinese built Fender Modern Player Jazz is still something like 1/4" deeper than my Squier VM precision.
For what it's worth though, I prefer the Squier.

[Beer of the Bass]

It's curious that Gibson chose to revive the Epiphone name for their budget line, when they'd already had a line of budget instruments under the Kalamazoo brand from the 30s through to the 70s. Although those might be slightly different in that they were made in the main Gibson factory rather than outsourced. If I ever sell my '36 Kalamazoo archtop (which I won't, 'cos it's lovely), I would absolutely mention Gibson in the advert title.

Edited November 18, 2016 by Beer of the Bass

[skankdelvar]

[quote name='Beer of the Bass' timestamp='1479465679' post='3176730']
It's curious that Gibson chose to revive the Epiphone name for their budget line, when they'd already had a line of budget instruments under the Kalamazoo brand from the 30s through to the 70s. [/quote]

Indeed so. One wonders why they dropped the Kalamazoo brand. Let us consider the currently available Gibson 'Signature' range of cheapies produced for sale to department stores, Argos, etc. The utter weirdness is that the head-stocks on the 'Signature' Les Pauls and SGs are much closer to the Gibson 'open book' shape than the more expensive Epiphone copies.



[quote name='Beer of the Bass' timestamp='1479465679' post='3176730']If I ever sell my '36 Kalamazoo archtop (which I won't, 'cos it's lovely), I would absolutely mention Gibson in the advert title.
[/quote]

Ooh! Sounds nice!

The only Kalamazoo I ever played was a bizarrely-shaped plywood solid body electric hanging unloved on the wall of a Dublin junk-shop. It was a complete dog even at 50 Euro.

[GarethFlatlands]

I once saw an advert for a Stagg Les Paul Custom selling for £300 with the ad stating they were £1,800 new!

Seriously hope no-one fell for that one.