Principle involved here or am I over reacting?

[Japhet]

Don't know how it works in France but in England the brewery often gives pubs an entertainment budget. The markup on a pint of beer is pretty minimal and now that people don't drink if they are driving it would be virtually impossible for a Landlord to cover a bands fee straight from the till. As previously stated, a lot of punters will make a single drink last all night to get to see a band for next to nothing.

[Happy Jack]

Had this happen to my band at one venue.

We played there again ... but WE put the jar around before he could.

[JTUK]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1460799084' post='3028807']
I don't know. How many decent venues are there in the wet bit of France..?
[/quote]

I'm assuming the band is a draw for people to travel and the venue to be full...
I'd say it is the venue's loss...
But sure, it depends how much you get upset over perceived things.
I back my judgement of people, so I think I'd know if this was a dodgy guy or
a misunderstanding..?
I suspect the latter in this case- not many people I know, tie up the entire deal tightly... and the booker forgot to mention it.
But we shall see when the OP comes back with more info.

[JTUK]

[quote name='Happy Jack' timestamp='1460799306' post='3028813']
Had this happen to my band at one venue.

We played there again ... but WE put the jar around before he could.


[/quote]



I hate pots and would hate to ask anyone to do one... apart from the special cases,

[SpondonBassed]

I suppose naming and shaming is not an option for legal reasons but it is something I think I'd want to know about before coming across it in the manner you described. It's just plain mean.

[leschirons]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1460799084' post='3028807']
I don't know. How many decent venues are there in the wet bit of France..?
[/quote]

Quite a few. I play as much as I want to which is a lot better than when I lived in the UK.

[taunton-hobbit]

There's a bit of a wiff here - it isn't 'exactly' illegal (imo), but the venue is misleading the punters......
It would probably be a good idea to (quietly) sort this out with the landlord for future reference.
Personally, I'd probably not play there again - once a place has 'upset' me, I'd find another gig......

[BottomE]

I'd find that pretty hard to keep quiet about TBH. However well intended, it feels dishonest. At the very least i would have expected some "consultation". On the flip-side, this is the entertainment industry where normal rules of business don't apply so am not surprised. In your shoes, i'd put it down to experience - you are still getting the same fee - i wouldn't want to let my band mates down if they still wanted to do the gig. I'd let Karma deal with the landlord.

[dannybuoy]

I agree with the OP, but playing devil's advocate...

If it turned out that the landlord decided to charge everybody entry that night to cover the band costs but didn't give you any of the ticket money, would you be ok with that?

If so, then what if he made the tickets optional and punters could pay whatever they liked - would you be ok with that?

If so, then what if he decided to collect the money at the end of the night instead of upon entry?

If all that is hunky dory, then I suppose the only time it becomes not OK is when he says "this is for the band" instead of "this is to pay for the band"!

Edited April 16, 2016 by dannybuoy

[Truckstop]

I think it's completely ok that the Landlord collected to contribute towards your fee. It's his venue, he can do what he likes.

Also, I'm supposing that your fee was agreed in advance? If he paid that fee to you then you're entitled to absolutely nothing on top.

Edited April 16, 2016 by Truckstop

[leftybassman392]

I can see the OP's point, but as others have said there's some lack of clarity here. Lots of folks are being quick to judge the landlord harshly, but (again as has already been said) if this is what he feels he needs to do in order to provide a venue for bands then so be it. Yes it's a bit a bit off ethically (although calling it illegal is a bit strong IMHO - in the UK the CPS would most likely not even entertain it), but the band got paid, the punters appear to have been happy and the landlord has offset some of the band's fee. If said OP has decided to make it a point of principle then that's fine too. His choice and his prerogative.

To be brutally honest about it (and with no offence intended to anybody), the whole affair generates images of teacups and weather fronts in my head.

Edited April 16, 2016 by leftybassman392

[discreet]

[quote name='leftybassman392' timestamp='1460803033' post='3028860']
...the whole affair generates images of teacups and weather fronts in my head.
[/quote]

Mine too. I can't afford to be principled in every shower, I save my ethics for the hurricane season.

Edited April 16, 2016 by discreet

[mcnach]

[quote name='Funky Dunky' timestamp='1460769918' post='3028669']
I agree with the OP, that's shameful behaviour, but I imagine the owner is collecting money from the punters to meet your fee so he can pocket the takings from the till. Is it right? No. Is it nice? No. Fair? No. Smart? I hate myself for this, but.....probably.

It's sickening. I actually got mad reading the original post.
[/quote]


But then collect not 'for the band' but 'so that this venue can keep bringing bands'.
If they pass a jar for the band I would hate that the cash I put in doesn't end up in the band's pockets. I'd feel I'd been lied to.

[Dad3353]

This would come under 'obtaining money by false pretences', and should be reprimanded. Yes, there are moral principles involved; those that can square that have a higher threshold of moral value than others. Where does that threshold lie in other issues, then, eh..? Some things are absolute; one cannot be 'almost' honest. One is or one isn't. Excepting Schrödinger's cat, of course.

[discreet]

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1460805735' post='3028908']
Schrödinger's cat...
[/quote]

Please don't open THAT box.

[Colonel36]

In this bar - what happens to the money that's tipped to the bar persons?

[Phil Starr]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1460798544' post='3028795']
Obviously it's not illegal to send the pot around or for the pub to say "it's for the band", and then keep it.

We've had that happen in the past. Currently all the gigs that put the jug around give us the money.

There are no "rules", so there is nothing you can do except cross the gig off your list.

If it's a good gig I'd still do it.
[/quote]

It's in France so who knows but in the UK it's illegal, actually fraud. Of course nobody can actually afford to enforce the law though there have been cases where restaurant owners have been prosecuted for not passing tips on to staff.

I'm with the OP though, you get to a point where dealing with dodgy dishonest B*******s just leaves such a nasty taste that life is too short to put up with it.

[Bobthedog]

There are obviously several ways to look at this.

If the landlord went around asking for money to keep bands coming in, I suspect that he will not get the same as if saying it is for the band. If he pays the band / agrees a fee up front, he is also taking a gamble that he may not collect enough to cover his costs of hiring a band. If he does and more, he perhaps should give the increased income to the band, however, if he is going to risk the downside perhaps he should enjoy the upside. The fee is for the band on the basis he is just swapping his pre paid fee for the collection with the gamble of a loss or margin.

Perhaps he needs any extra money just to keep the pub open? Try asking for the bucket instead of a fee. Perhaps try asking for the bucket on the basis you will give him any income above your pre agreed fee. I suspect you will not want to do that for same reason he may not wish to give you anything he makes above the fee through the collection.

Edited April 16, 2016 by Bobthedog

[Dad3353]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1460805851' post='3028910']
Please don't open THAT box.
[/quote]

But if that's the only way of answering the question, instead of wishy-washy shilly-shally a*sing around, what then..? It's all very fine asking these pompous existentialist riddles; 'What if' this, 'Supposing' that, but it's a bit more to the point and actually moves things forward to open the blasted box and see in what state the cat is, in reality. Messing about with hypothetical suppositions is for the dogs. Open the box, open the box, open the box...

(Signed...) Pandora

[discreet]

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1460806317' post='3028923']
It's all very fine asking these pompous existentialist riddles...
[/quote]

You brought [color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Schrödinger into it. I was just trying to be funny. [/font][/color]

[NoRhino]

Test your priciple next time. Forego an agreed fee and say you'll take the donations.

[discreet]

[quote name='NoRhino' timestamp='1460806600' post='3028929']
Forego an agreed fee and say you'll take the donations.
[/quote]

Where's that LIKE button again..?

Edited April 16, 2016 by discreet

[Dad3353]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1460806555' post='3028928']
You brought [color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Schrödinger into it. I was just trying to be funny. [/font][/color]
[/quote]

'Trying'..? Yes, you are often 'trying'.

...

[4stringslow]

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1460806317' post='3028923']
But if that's the only way of answering the question, instead of wishy-washy shilly-shally a*sing around, what then..? It's all very fine asking these pompous existentialist riddles; 'What if' this, 'Supposing' that, but it's a bit more to the point and actually moves things forward to open the blasted box and see in what state the cat is, in reality. Messing about with hypothetical suppositions is for the dogs. Open the box, open the box, open the box...

(Signed...) Pandora
[/quote]

Trouble is, you open Pandora's box and out jumps a Trojan Horse.


Money has a tendency to spoil everything, doesn't it? Sounds like a good night out spoiled. We mostly play for free or for beer. We enjoy it, the audience seems to enjoy it and the venue presumably enjoys it as we are often asked back. Sure, the venue makes money from it all but if they didn't then it wouldn't exist and that would be one less place to play and one less place for the audience to have a night out.

Edited April 16, 2016 by 4stringslow

[Luulox]

It seems as it stands that the owners actions were a bit dubious at the least. I would put in the pot thinking the band were getting the cash as an extra tip. I would not play again, life is too short to spend it being took adbvantage of by people with questionable morals.