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Paypal Gift Payments

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We have been made aware of a number of transactions where goods have been paid for using the Paypal Gift system and the goods are never delivered afterwards.

Please be very aware that if you use this payment method there is no way of getting your money back if the deal goes wrong.

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[quote name='icastle' timestamp='1419514887' post='2640551']
We have been made aware of a number of transactions where goods have been paid for using the Paypal Gift system and the goods are never delivered afterwards.

Please be very aware that if you use this payment method there is no way of getting your money back if the deal goes wrong.
[/quote]

Tell me about it!
If you use a credit card for your PAINPal, the credit card company MAY be able to help but at a minimum of 30 days after the transaction.
As Ian says, don't risk it. Pin this Ian?

Edited by karlfer

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[quote name='icastle' timestamp='1419514887' post='2640551']
We have been made aware of a number of transactions where goods have been paid for using the Paypal Gift system and the goods are never delivered afterwards.

Please be very aware that if you use this payment method there is no way of getting your money back if the deal goes wrong.
[/quote]Are these transactions that have been made via basschat?

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I've been doing most transactions recently using bank transfer. I guess that's even worse really.

So a special Christmas thanks to all the folk I've dealt with for not ripping me off. :)

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Exactly - there is an inherent risk independent of payment method. Better trust the seller. There is good and bad people everywhere. I offer paypal and I ask for no fees because I am not a professional seller. If you want zero risk then perhaps you should not buy from the classifieds.

That said, compared to say the Spanish forum, I find BCers in general very honest and trustworthy.

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[quote name='karlfer' timestamp='1419515269' post='2640559']
As Ian says, don't risk it. Pin this Ian?
[/quote]

Yep - was already doing it. :)

[quote name='KiOgon' timestamp='1419515514' post='2640566']
Are these transactions that have been made via basschat?
[/quote]

Unfortunately there have been a couple over the last few months.

[quote name='Raslee' timestamp='1419515754' post='2640569']
Any member names we should be wary of ?
[/quote]

Nope.
Anyone who does this has all of their ads removed and a permanent ban applied to their account.

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[quote name='icastle' timestamp='1419517251' post='2640592']
Anyone who does this has all of their ads removed and a permanent ban applied to their account.
[/quote]

Anyone who uses paypal gift? Or anyone who doesn't deliver goods?

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[quote name='skej21' timestamp='1419518386' post='2640611']
Anyone who uses paypal gift? Or anyone who doesn't deliver goods?
[/quote]

The latter :)

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I'll use PP Gift but only for things like strings and other relatively low-cost items. Bigger stuff like amps and basses, I'll only buy from people I know (or at least people I know through BassChat) and/or who are active on the forum and have good feedback.

I know noobs have to start somewhere to build their reputations, but you have to look at each deal on its own merits, imho. :)

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[quote name='icastle' timestamp='1419517251' post='2640592']
Yep - was already doing it. :)



Unfortunately there have been a couple over the last few months.

[b][i]Sorry to hear that![/i][/b]

Nope.
Anyone who does this has all of their ads removed and a permanent ban applied to their account.
[/quote]
[b][i]Now that - I'm pleased to hear & definitely the way to treat cheats[/i][/b]!

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I'm using PayPal as a gift in all my transactions but i can only talk as a buyer.For me it is a easy and fast way to pay for what i want..Sorry to hear about Carlfer troubles i really hope it will come to an good end..

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It certainly works for me as a seller. As a buyer I am a bit more circumspect but, well, that's just Life isn't it.

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I usually make an overpayment to cover the sellers fees so I'm still covered. Or if I've got enough in my paypal account pay directly from that ( no fees).

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Very good advice in this thread.

ALWAYS ask the seller to raise an invoice through PayPal and do the deal as a commercial transaction.

The PayPal invoice is especially important. It creates an 'official' paper trail (detailing what has been purchased and at what price), which the PayPal support team will use as the basis of any claims should you need to ask them for help.

Sellers are billed a % of the sale price for commercial payments (check the PayPal website for details of the fee charged, which varies from country to country). This is the reason why a lot of sellers ask for 'gift' payments, as gifts don't incur a fee for the transaction.

Alternatively, it's also not uncommon for sellers to ask buyers to reimburse the transaction fee for commercial payments. This smaller amount can be settled as a 'gift' payment at the discretion of the buyer.

Bear in mind that PayPal is set up to help take the risk out of commercial transactions - including private sales - but ONLY if the money is exchanged on commercial terms. Their support team is typically helpful and quick to respond. And their policies are very much in favour of protecting buyers.

But... be clear that 'gift' payments aren't covered by their buyer/seller protection policy. So if you exchange money as a gift then good luck and keep your fingers crossed, 'cos that's all the guarantee you're going to get.

So yeah. Use PayPal properly and your a$$ is pretty much covered. Cut corners, deal in 'gifts' and it'll be hung out like the back end of a baboon.

Just saying ;)

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[quote name='Skol303' timestamp='1419529475' post='2640713']
Very good advice in this thread.

ALWAYS ask the seller to raise an invoice through PayPal and do the deal as a commercial transaction.

The PayPal invoice is especially important. It creates an 'official' paper trail (detailing what has been purchased and at what price), which the PayPal support team will use as the basis of any claims should you need to ask them for help.

Sellers are billed a % of the sale price for commercial payments (check the PayPal website for details of the fee charged, which varies from country to country). This is the reason why a lot of sellers ask for 'gift' payments, as gifts don't incur a fee for the transaction.

Alternatively, it's also not uncommon for sellers to ask buyers to reimburse the transaction fee for commercial payments. This smaller amount can be settled as a 'gift' payment at the discretion of the buyer.

Bear in mind that PayPal is set up to help take the risk out of commercial transactions - including private sales - but ONLY if the money is exchanged on commercial terms. Their support team is typically helpful and quick to respond. And their policies are very much in favour of protecting buyers.

But... be clear that 'gift' payments aren't covered by their buyer/seller protection policy. So if you exchange money as a gift then good luck and keep your fingers crossed, 'cos that's all the guarantee you're going to get.

So yeah. Use PayPal properly and your a$$ is pretty much covered. Cut corners, deal in 'gifts' and it'll be hung out like the back end of a baboon.

Just saying ;)
[/quote]

Beg to differ.
My issue wasn't on here and perhaps my naivety was part of the problem
Bass for sale on Gumtree. The guy wanted payment to his account on the Friday night, collection by me on Saturday. I thought ok as I THOUGHT PAINPAL covered these things.
When I got to no 27 of the street stated...... on the Saturday, it didn't exist. It had been flattened. Numbers 1-15 existed, 33-37 existed, 17- 31 on that street had been flattened.
I rang the phone number he had given me. Turned out to be an ansaphone for a Sunday Football League.
So, no bass, no money, no point of contact.
PAINPal said that as it was a payment to a persons account, rather than a payment for specific goods, that they would not cover it.
They changed their minds after some more communication however they finally stated that if there was no money in the sellers account they could only " restrict his account privileges".
There is enough time passed now that I have passed it to my credit card company, as the PAINPal account I set up to buy this bass was fuelled by my credit card. We shall see.
I was reluctant to pay by PAINPal as I was robbed of £600 and a bass by a thieving git in Italy about 5 years ago.

The real point is if you want absolute security, you really need to know all of PAINPal's T and C's.
And by the way, as THE BUYER, PAINPal charged me £27 for the transaction.
NEVER NEVER NEVER AGAIN.

Edited by karlfer

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Unfortunately, paypal can be a pain for the buyer or seller. I've posted on here before about experiences on ebay where I have sent goods but the buyer has claimed they had not received the goods. The courier service had signatures from the recipient at the correct address but the case was found against me as I could not prove that it was the buyer who had actually received it! - I lost the item and the "buyer" got his money back too. The final insult was that the courier would not pay out on the insurance as they had "proof" it had been delivered to the correct address.

Paypal then makes it possible for a buyer to receive an item and get their money back!

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If anyone knows a better system for buying and selling items from/to complete strangers over the Internet, I'm all ears.

Until then the options are PayPal or credit card and the promise of 'some' support if things go base over apex. Or there's good old cash in hand and motorway service stations (or other more glamorous rendezvous of your choosing).

Or you can pay by bank transfer and be ever the optimist :)

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[quote name='Skol303' timestamp='1419539632' post='2640789']
If anyone knows a better system for buying and selling items from/to complete strangers over the Internet, I'm all ears.

Until then the options are PayPal or credit card and the promise of 'some' support if things go base over apex. Or there's good old cash in hand and motorway service stations (or other more glamorous rendezvous of your choosing).

Or you can pay by bank transfer and be ever the optimist :)
[/quote]

The point Ian made that started this thread, was to treat with caution.
Reminding people that PAINPal can be dangerous is to be applauded.

We know it is convenient but the more people that know it is flawed, the better.
And yes, I bloody well do have an axe to grind. :angry:

But not with you :)

Edited by karlfer

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I'm really sorry to read of your experience Karlfer and hope you manage to get reimbursed by PP, or from your credit card company. I really sympathise with you mate, that's a terrible thing to have had happen.

So aside from a face to face cash transaction,which is not always possible given geographical locations, does anybody else have any suggestions for a safe and secure method of payment?

PS Merry Christmas and an eventful 2015 to everyone on here, and thanks all for the support over the last year.

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It's been suggested before, and, no, I don't know how to get it set up, but a mutually trusted third party intermediate would work. Something like: Seller sends the item to 3rd party. Buyer sends funds to 3rd party. Upon satisfactory reception of all elements, 3rd party sends on said elements. Dunno if the logistics of it all is feasible, but it's a way forward, no..? Maybe a local music shop could oblige..? Any mileage..? Anyone cleverer than me to sort something out..? Where's Lord Sugar, or the Dragons when they're needed..?

Edited by Dad3353

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[quote name='karlfer' timestamp='1419539987' post='2640793']
The point Ian made that started this thread, was to treat with caution. Reminding people that PAINPal can be dangerous is to be applauded... And yes, I bloody well do have an axe to grind. :angry: But not with you :) [/quote]

No worries, I totally understand the axe grinding!

I've been lucky. I've done loads of transactions through eBay and PayPal, lots of international shipping, and so far I've not got burned. Touch wood. I have needed to call on PayPal's support in dealing with one douchebag and they were great. But that's just one neer-do-well of undoubtedly many.

Ultimately, things go wrong when dealing with douchebags. That isn't PayPal's fault per se - it's the fault of the douchebag. And no system is fully douchebag-proof. Not even cash on collection.

But you're absolutely right. People need to tread carefully and not be complacent, thinking that PayPal is 100% safe. It's not. But it's safer than blind trust. And it's all we've got :(

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