Prince Sues . . .

[flyfisher]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-25927363

So what do we think is more important about music - the money or the art?

Does a multi-millionaire musician suing fans do more harm than good?

[fretmeister]

Bootlegs from crappy phone recordings at gigs are a weird issue.

I'd have every sympathy with Prince about distribution of original material - DVD rips / music rips etc. But amateur bootlegs....?

He'd be better off following Metallica's example - you can get a 'desk-mix' from them of almost every show they did over the last few years, usually only the day after the gig.

I still have old tapes from going to Donington 20 years ago. Well dodgy sound, but the occasional blinding song audible out of the sound of airborne bottles of piss.

Happy days!

[uncle psychosis]

Prince has always been [i]very[/i] aggressive in protecting his rights and is quite well known for doing so. I have some sympathy for the defendants but given that they are big enough Prince fans to want bootlegged recordings surely they should have been aware of his well publicised stance towards unauthorised distribution?

Funnily enough, the fact that its so hard to find his stuff on places like youtube has actually put me off buying his music---his back catalogue is so huge that without some guidance I'm not going to bother trying to find out where to start!

[Kiwi]

It's a complicated issue. Some of the live bootlegs have no commercial value at all yet can become very valuable archives. Also Prince has to balance up the negative publicity of suing a fan and the positive profile that bootlegs give against his potential loss of royalties...assuming that there is a direct relationship between live bootlegs and the loss of income he might have gained from publishing recorded material at the same event.

Some artists seem to be like King [s]Midas[/s] Canute - trying to control something that ultimately can't really be controlled.

A more astute and pragmatic way to use illegal downloads is to use them to help identify new markets.

[url="http://www.citeworld.com/consumerization/22803/iron-maiden-musicmetric?page=0"]http://www.citeworld...icmetric?page=0[/url]

That, ladies and gentlemen, is how you turn a frown upside down.

[Dad3353]

Another poor, hungry, working musician who needs the money..?

[gjones]

The purple munchkin strikes again.

[Count Bassy]

[quote name='Kiwi' timestamp='1390914620' post='2351158']
Some artists seem to be like King Midas - trying to control something that ultimately can't really be controlled.
[/quote]

I think you mean Canute!. Mind you Midas turned everything he touched to gold, and some might say that this also applies to Prince


And in defence of Canute, one modern theory seems to be that he deliberately 'tried' to hold back the tide, knowing he would fail, to demonstrate that he was not a god, rather than to prove that he was.

Edited January 28, 2014 by Count Bassy

[Kiwi]

[quote name='Count Bassy' timestamp='1390915320' post='2351175']
I think you mean Canute!. Mind you Midas turned everything he touched to gold, and some might say that this also applies to Prince
[/quote]

Yes, you're right - I was caught between mouthfuls of hummus in the office and only half engaged... Thanks for correcting.

[Kiwi]

Although he has a very strong set of personal values, I'm not sure what Prince's tactics are commercially. If he's attempting to maintain value of his product by restricting supply, it seems as likely to create frustration in his fan base as demand.

Looks like he's over here on Feb 3 for a short series of impromptu concerts in London. Unfortunately I have a formal dinner on Feb 4 to attend and need to pack for a trip to China on Feb 6. Here's hoping something is planned on Feb 5 and I'm within reach of tickets...his 2007 after show gigs were a life changing experience for me.

[flyfisher]

[quote name='fretmeister' timestamp='1390912826' post='2351123']
Bootlegs from crappy phone recordings at gigs are a weird issue.

I'd have every sympathy with Prince about distribution of original material - DVD rips / music rips etc. But amateur bootlegs....?

He'd be better off following Metallica's example - you can get a 'desk-mix' from them of almost every show they did over the last few years, usually only the day after the gig.

I still have old tapes from going to Donington 20 years ago. Well dodgy sound, but the occasional blinding song audible out of the sound of airborne bottles of piss.

Happy days!
[/quote]

Yep, that's pretty much my take on it. I seem to recall that The Grateful Dead also used to actively encourage audience recordings.

I guess whatever he does there'll be a hardcore of fans who will buy all his releases and fund his no doubt very nice lifestyle . . . . which is also an argument for not bothering with this sort of thing in the first place.

Perhaps the ultimate musical indulgence would be a superstar muso claiming their music is so precious that it will never be recorded and will only be played live in secret one-to-one sessions for individuals who can pay a hundred grand or so for a private performance and the rest of the great unwashed are not worthy.

[keeponehandloose]

Is his surname Rickenbacker?

[fretmeister]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1390919013' post='2351274']


Yep, that's pretty much my take on it. I seem to recall that The Grateful Dead also used to actively encourage audience recordings.

I guess whatever he does there'll be a hardcore of fans who will buy all his releases and fund his no doubt very nice lifestyle . . . . which is also an argument for not bothering with this sort of thing in the first place.

Perhaps the ultimate musical indulgence would be a superstar muso claiming their music is so precious that it will never be recorded and will only be played live in secret one-to-one sessions for individuals who can pay a hundred grand or so for a private performance and the rest of the great unwashed are not worthy.
[/quote]


When I saw him at the O2 residency the security binned anyone taking photos.

The PA announcement was "This show is for your memories only"

Twat.

But it was an amazing show. One of the very best I've ever seen.

[Big_Stu]

Many years ago I bought a bootleg of a Stones concert. Playing it I could just about hear some of the riffs, the rest was crowd noise and the guy who taped it talking/shouting to his mate. Possibly recorded up in the gods at a US arena gig.
It didn't stop me from liking the Stones, going to their gig (singular - I wouldn't now) or buying other official recordings of theirs. So it may be an empty argument that he's using, though it may also be the premise that J (A) Hole uses for his brand, that if he isn't seen to attempt to defend it it becomes fair game.
There are a few bands - I instantly think of Bob Dylan as an example who have "legalised" a bootleg to head off the bootlegger. Edited January 28, 2014 by Big_Stu

[Dr.Dave]

Speaking as someone who had his copyright stolen - a CD single I wrote and recorded to raise money for the stroke association , as a stroke killed my mother , was copied and sold for profit by a scrote on Wakey market - I feel very strongly about copyright theft and have no sympathy with those who are caught and punished for it. Whether Prince is doing this for the right reasons I don't know , strange little creature that he is - and there's something to be said for the difference between a true rip off merchant and , say , a fan who just wants to share a concert experience. Sadly I couldn't afford the team of lawyers like the stunted one can - so I got my brother to wall the guy up and threaten to tear his head off and sh*t down his neck instead. I think many folk think it's OK to rip off the rich and famous - but what if one of us wrote a great song that might mean our band could go into the black and get better gear and better gigs etc with the cash from it..... then some herbert steals it and makes a fortune. How would we feel then ? I see no reason to treat rich guys differently to poor ones . In this case I hope any real rip off merchants lose ( and unwise fans learn a lesson) more than I hope Prance wins but that's only because I think he's a nobber. Generally I'm 100% for protecting the artist.

[flyfisher]

[quote name='Dr.Dave' timestamp='1390926975' post='2351385']
I see no reason to treat rich guys differently to poor ones .
[/quote]

That's a very enlightened viewpoint, though one that people in general don't seem to subscribe to. The popularity of progressive taxation would be one example where society deems that rich people should pay higher rates of tax than anyone else.

The thing that intrigues me the most about this is if Prince is so concerned about people posting smartphone videos of his concerts, why does he bother to gig at all? Is the money really that much more important than the music or is it some sort of power madness thing?

[Lozz196]

[quote name='uncle psychosis' timestamp='1390914376' post='2351152']
Prince has always been [i]very[/i] aggressive in protecting his rights and is quite well known for doing so.
[/quote]

Doesn`t work for a well-known instrument maker does he....................

[lojo]

I don't know the ins and outs of the case, and if there is business like profiteering from piracy going on then fair enough, but fans just posting live records, then thats too harsh, and Mr Prince should be ashamed of himself

[tedmanzie]

What a twat.

[lurksalot]

Bizzarrely ,I seem to recall that he gave one of his releases away with the mail on sunday or some such publication , and in the process helped drum up the interest in his O2 gigs , knowing the way things work this could be purely a stroke to get something in the media with his name on it .

[RhysP]

I can't see why people are giving the guy hassle for not allowing photos at his gigs - the vast majority of venues have strict "No photos/videos/recordings" rules but these are proving harder to enforce since the whole stupid camera phone thing took off.

Most people wouldn't have even thought about taking photos/videos at a gig not that long ago, but now everybody has a camera on their phone they think it's their god-given right to do so.

I can also fully understand why an artist would not want poor quality recordings of their performance circulated.

Edited January 28, 2014 by RhysP

[TheGreek]

[quote name='Dr.Dave' timestamp='1390926975' post='2351385']
Speaking as someone who had his copyright stolen - a CD single I wrote and recorded to raise money for the stroke association , as a stroke killed my mother , was copied and sold for profit by a scrote on Wakey market - I feel very strongly about copyright theft and have no sympathy with those who are caught and punished for it. Whether Prince is doing this for the right reasons I don't know , strange little creature that he is - and there's something to be said for the difference between a true rip off merchant and , say , a fan who just wants to share a concert experience. Sadly I couldn't afford the team of lawyers like the stunted one can - so I got my brother to wall the guy up and threaten to tear his head off and sh*t down his neck instead. I think many folk think it's OK to rip off the rich and famous - but what if one of us wrote a great song that might mean our band could go into the black and get better gear and better gigs etc with the cash from it..... then some herbert steals it and makes a fortune. How would we feel then ? I see no reason to treat rich guys differently to poor ones . In this case I hope any real rip off merchants lose ( and unwise fans learn a lesson) more than I hope Prance wins but that's only because I think he's a nobber. Generally I'm 100% for protecting the artist.
[/quote]

I'm in full agreement with this - there are far too many people out there who want something for nothing and think that because it doesn't feel like theft, it isn't.

I hope that Prince's action in the court starts something and that other musicians jump on the bandwagon to put an end to copyright piracy. There must be loads of skint musicians who aren't getting paid for their back catalogue and performances while scrotes sell copies of them on places like Camden Market.

Edited January 28, 2014 by TheGreek

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='keeponehandloose' timestamp='1390919312' post='2351278']
Is his surname Rickenbacker?
[/quote]
I was wondering that - if the same copyright laws in the US that causes Rickenbacker to go after wee Tommy who was given his old uncles hondo means that Prince has to defend his stuff in this way.
I also wonder after his bust up with his label how much of his back catalogue he actually owns? I've no idea at all but maybe he's not as loaded as he was, income isn't as high and he's needing to try and keep his pension fund?

great artist, great back catalogue - you have to fight through a whole load of guff though to find the gems.

[timmo]

If you get a really good copy of live music, which would obviously be unique, you could possibly make a lot of money on Youtube from advertising revenue. In some ways i agree with him if people are profiteering from it. It is kind of like the comedians who go on tour and have someone put all his show online. The audience then know the gags and they have a limited opportunity for DVD`s

[gapiro]

Not suprised. But a little bit disappointed.

I understand both sides of the argument. I think however it will ultimately do him more harm than good.
Muse allowbootlegs, and they are regularly distributed on the muse forums. They are generally sewn together from recordings by hundreds of people from youtube, etc, and can be great - there is for example a bootleg of the entire of reading/leeds when they did the entire of origin of symmetry in full, in order.

[KevB]

Yes bootlegging's been going on for years, at their height Zeppelin were probably the most bootlegged band in christendome and Peter Grant was trying to milk everything he could from joe public on behalf of the band. But they were selling albums by the truckload so a few bootlegs here or there weren't going to be much of a concern. I think this type of action just further demonstrates where the shift in priority of 'product' by the artists has taken place. They have pretty much no control over free distribution of their studio recorded material however much anti-pirating legislation tries to stop it. I recall not that long ago Prince himself just 'gave away' a brand new studio album with a Sunday newspaper. So the shift is to try to control as much as possible what goes on at the live shows as this is now the main product, not what's been recorded in the studio. Live gigs is the steady income stream for a lot of artists now. It's understandable that he wants more control over what comes about during that performance. As someone else mentioned if it gets too out of hand people will get to see a full show on youtube (though the recording quality might be dubious) enough to decide they might not bother actually going after all. You would assume Prince is currently still big enough to sell out arenas irrespective but it won't last forever.