Why weak wattage?

[Downunderwonder]

8 hours ago, la bam said:

That's too loud / needless for home and just not practical for gigging and to be honest not much different in price. 

Horses for courses and you don’t send your highly trained trotter to the galllops.

 

Most of the gigs I have done in the last 10 years have been done with 200w'ers.

[Downunderwonder]

4 hours ago, TimR said:

I blame the "keeping up with the drummer" mindset. Even I have fallen into that trap in my post.

 

The drummer should be playing at the appropriate volume. Too many non-musical drummers playing at one volume. But that's another thread. 

A drummer that is a little OTT wouldn't be too much of a problem. When Sir Guitard has to OTT the drummer instead of telling drummer too cool his jets you got problems.

[Downunderwonder]

1 hour ago, la bam said:

It's no problem at all

 

Its not a dig at anything, just a genuine question.... Just light hearted. If it works for you, then great. 

 

Why build a weaker powered version of something that works well, and produce something that may not (in certain circumstances)? 

 

Why build a practice amp that is too loud for a house, (I'm all for more power and a volume knob) but not suitable for the majority of gigs? 

 

Its properly also to do with the YouTube over enthusiastic rave about anything presenters as well who help shift these to people as amazingly loud gigging amps, who then find out that they need something else.. 

Why? Because people that don't need to blow the doors off the joint buy them to use on gigs.

[Dan Dare]

2 hours ago, LawrenceH said:

I wish I could find a good lightweight 8" driver (or even 6") optimised for high power handling, low resonant frequency, medium Q and low sensitivity.

 

Have a look at Volt drivers. Nice, but not cheap, though.

[Norris]

1 hour ago, Downunderwonder said:

Most of the gigs I have done in the last 10 years have been done with 200w'ers.

Most of mine have been done with 500W but with the master volume turned down to 4 🤪

[TimR]

Sensitivity.

 

My 500W amp spends much of its time set at 3. If I adjust it to 2.5 its far too quiet, 3.5 too loud. 

 

I guess a 200W amp might give more range. 

[Wolverinebass]

I remember trying an Elf into a Vanderkley 2x10 at a SE Bash a few years ago. It was total and utter crap. To get any form of volume out of it you'd either be red lining it the whole time or using it with an 8x10 which defeats the entire point of such a small amp.

 

Fair enough, coffee shop gig. For anything loud, it wouldn't work at all. Zero headroom. 

[knirirr]

200W is plenty for me (with a 1x12 cab), but I'm playing jazz and if guitarists are present they're going to be playing clean and at a sensible volume. 

[LawrenceH]

I like reading people's different subjective preferences, makes me question/analyse my own.

 

I don't think it's just a matter of volume per se, rather the EQ balance you want and where there is space in the mix for the bass. 100w is ample in some cases and woefully inadequate in others.

 

Bear in mind that speaker/cab design philosophy changes a lot depending on how much power you have available. The right 15" driver and cab will let you gig a 50w head, but to scale that up even a bit requires a lot of boot space.

[gjones]

I did buy a 100 watt Fender Rumble when I joined a country band. It was definitely loud enough for the quieter type gigs I did with them. I also used it with a blues band, that I would occasionally gig with. Both of those bands had sensible drummers. It was extremely light and easy to cart around and had more than enough output for that type of music.

 

I've got 500 watt heads and a cupboard full of cabs for the bigger gigs, with shed builder drummers and power mad guitarists.

Edited Saturday at 23:33 by gjones

[tauzero]

8 hours ago, la bam said:

My point is I don't see what the middle ground serves..... They're too loud for home practice, so they haven't been designed for that, and as I've said imo on their own not really upto the majority of gigging, so they can't be designed for that, they're not far off but they run out of steam or get driven that hard it's not good for them, when the same chassis could carry a more power amp for hardly any more money to build. 

 

Which 200W amps have you used for home practice and found too loud? The volume control is effective on most, if not all, amps, and will reduce the sound level considerably when correctly applied.

 

8 hours ago, la bam said:

Now... The elf from trace I understand. Ground breaking, good sound, and can be used as a di or Di to foh, and you can fit it in your pocket.... But heads and combos the same or similar size as larger powered ones, that have to be really pushed just to do the job? I just don't get it. 

 

Maybe I'm missing something? What specific use would a 200w amp have over a 500w or 800w have? 

 

If you're using a 100-200W speaker, it means you're less likely to accidentally blow it. I use my 200W TC BAM200 head in preference to my 900W Tecamp when I'm using a small cab (house jam micro cab, and, when I've finally completed it, BC 8" cab). Still managed to blow an Eminence Deltalite 2510 mk2 with it (poxy "Made in USA" rubbish, give me reliable Chinese stuff any day).

 

[Phil Starr]

15 hours ago, DGBass said:

If we are talking modern class-d amps, I suspect that someone in the industry, probably an accountant, has decreed that 200w gives the best bang for your buck in an entry level bass head ( or combo).

 

Given some of the earlier comments I ought to say I'm not being critical at all just that you made an interesting point

 

The theoretical maximum power of an amp is determined by the operating voltage, the power in practice by heatsinking. If you are buiding a 60V amplifier than a lot of your components need to be 60V rated particularly in the power output stage. Running at 30V saves you a lot of money. Most Class D amps are complete amplifiers in a chip though there are also class D driver chips where the processing goes on in a bog standard chip and manufacturers can add the output devices of their choice. Designing and fabricating the first chip is an expensive process but then mass producing them costs pence. Nearly all of the high power chips are manufactured as stereo chips and many as quad amps. Power is proportional to the square of the voltage and you can use a stereo amp module in bridge mode to get four times the power. The same chips are used in domestic hi-fi electronics and things like in car entertainment systems. If you have a car stereo with a sub it's probably running one of the 50W quad amps with two of the amps running each side and two others bridged to drive the sub. It was these chips that stimulated the whole 2.1 phenomenon.

 

So there are a few manufacturers of these chips who make ones of the right voltage to produce 200W into 4 ohms given the limits of their power supplies and heatsinking. Guess what is in the Gnome ,Elf,BAM  at their heart they are car stereos with a bit of bass orientated EQ. It's also how they can be so cheap. Bass amps aren't really a big market so a lot of innovation is piggy backed upon what happens elsewhere in the market especially at the bottom end of the market.

 

It also makes sense for amps to go up in 3dB steps which is doubling amplifier power. So, 100,200,400,800 does make sense both for the bassist and the manufacturer.

[Leonard Smalls]

10 hours ago, Wolverinebass said:

I remember trying an Elf

Our other bass player in the punk band uses an Elf - at rehearsal into my large Precision Devices 15" cab and for gigs into a 4x10 with Celestion speakers. *

He uses a Sansamp as well, but we constantly have to tell him to turn down - and the rest of us are quite loud...

And I use a 1200w Crown power amp into Markbass 2x10 and 4x10 for home practice. It goes loud as well as quiet!

 

 

*both cabs have a sensitivity of around 100dB/W@1m. So that's 100dB of racket for 1W going in, 103dB for 2W, 106dB for 4W, 109dB for 8W, 112dB for 16W, 115dB for 32W, 118dB for 64W, 121dB for 128W.

[SteveXFR]

More power means more heat which generally means bigger enclosure and more fans. Im using a 600w head and that has three fans on it so its big and its heavy and it was expensive (£700 when new). 

200w is plenty for pub gigs and thats all most people want. Ive only got a 600w head because I like Ashdown ABM's and couldn't find a 300w head locally at that time.

I guess small amps must be big sellers otherwise manufacturers wouldn't make so many of them 

Edited Sunday at 10:24 by SteveXFR

[Ed_S]

23 hours ago, la bam said:

I get a bit / lot confused sometimes.... 

 

With another load of new gear being released at the moment, I can't help wonder the same thing every year... 

 

There's only really 2 uses for an amp - practicing/home use and playing live / in bands. 

 

So why do nearly all the manufacturers sell ranges that are dead set in the middle? And serve neither use? 

 

Ie the 200w class d type? Or 200w class d combos etc... 

 

That's too loud / needless for home and just not practical for gigging and to be honest not much different in price. 

 

I see loads and loads of stuff I'd like to buy second hand, then see it's the weaker version, drives me mad! 

 

Surely it's the same effort to put in a 500w power module as it is a 200w one? 

 

A bass amp used to be a bass amp... Ie you could gig with it without worry, and a practice amp for home was just that. Now it's a minefield out there... 

 

My gut reaction based on not much is that it's because so many people start off by requesting it. They say something like "I'm just starting out so I want something that will be ok for playing along at home and not so big that the other half complains I'm taking over the living room, but it'd be nice if it'd also be up to jamming with some friends when I get to that point, maybe travelling by bus so we can have a few cans". A 200W 1x10 combo, then, because if it was 500W it would sound like overkill for a beginner and if it was 50W it'd 'never keep up with a drummer', so it's 200W. Of which they'll get 140ish and there's no getting away from the fact that it sounds like a single 10, so then they say "I like it, but I want more". Matching 1x10 extension cab, then, because that's how you 'get all the power out of the amp'. So the manufacturer/shop sells another unit, and in fairness it probably works out well for the customer in most cases.

 

I started on a Hartke HA2000 (200W), have gigged a lot with Markbass Nanos (300W) and am now using TC BAMs (200W) through whatever is already on stage and I don't have to carry. 200W through a heavy and unfashionable old 4x10 is fine for metal.

[Cliff Edge]

I gigged for years with a sensible drummer and a very loud at times guitarist using valve combos. Pubs, clubs, some quite large, and the occasional outdoor jobs with a Hartke 3500 into an Eden 1 x 15.  1000 watt PA was just vocals and the rhythm guitarist. Never had a problem being heard. 

[Elfrasho]

PAs have got so much better now so for alot of people, an amp is mostly for stage monitoring and tone sculpting these days. A 200wamp with a 1x12 or 2x10 will be sufficient for lot of people.

[Staggering on]

21 hours ago, knirirr said:

200W is plenty for me (with a 1x12 cab), but I'm playing jazz and if guitarists are present they're going to be playing clean and at a sensible volume. 

 

Exactly.

I play DB and EUB in jazz groups from trios to big band and I also play in a bluegrass band and my 200W Traynor SB112 handles gigs with ease and has a DI out so it can be put into a PA at festivals or large venues and it is on stage as a monitor. It has served me well for several years, I guess if I played some other types of music (ie louder) I would use other equipment but my amp can be used at home and at gigs and rehearsals so is perfect for me, small light and a reasonable price...and it's made in Canada too.

[Rich]

My TC 250w combo is more than adequate for gigs, certainly in pubs or where there's a PA, and I use it for rehearsals too. My home practice 'amp' is a Pandora and a set of cans. 

[SteveXFR]

With a loud metal band, my 600W Ashdown amp is running at about quarter on the master volume knob. When we had a second guitarist, I was close to a third on the knob. Im pretty sure the 300W version of the same amp would do me just fine but the used market is ful of 600W ABM heads and 300W ABMs are really hard to find.

There's definitely a difference in speaker efficiency. If I take my 210 and 115 GK cabs to practice then ill run the master volume lower than if I use the battered old Peavey 410 cab in the studio.

[Stub Mandrel]

I use a 50W head through a small, inefficient but quality cab for home and a 500W head through a very efficient cab for live.

 

The frustration is it's easier to push the little rig into gorgeous overdrive. 

 

I play live with a lot if gain so I can dig in and get overdrive, but that means my master settings are down low and fiddly to get right. If I go past 10 o'clock plants die and I get told off...

 

Up to 30 years ago I was gigging with a mere 150W head (the same type Krist Novoselick used).

[godathunder]

Quick question.

 

Do you think that all manufacturers measure their amps' power output the same way?

Is there an audible difference in maximum output between different different models quoting identical specs?

 

In my sound system days I found huge differences between well regarded, name brand (not chinese no name) power amps claiming similar performance, particularly in terms of burst vs sustained output. Theres an entirely reasonable school of thought that music is made almost entirely of transients and the ability to cleanly reproduce high levels momentarily is more important than the ability to sustain signals at full pelt indefinitely. It is very common for amps to drop their output by 6db or so after a few milliseconds

 

Theres also the question of the frequency response of the power amp section. Most power amps quote their output at 1khz (and at significant thd). Lower frequencies have a more intense duty cycle and are more demanding of the power supply and cooling system. Consequently the output at 40hz may be a good few db down from the output at 1khz.

 

Unfortunately, we play an instrument that is often quite demanding in both these regards.

 

The ancient Crest 8001 lurking in my gear pile is rated at around 2400w bridged into 8ohms - at the point where most similarly rated amps run out of steam this one still has plenty of headroom left. Predictably this comes at a price - in this case, having to lug around a 3u 36kg lump of metal. There are newer amps that will keep up with it at a fraction of the weight and cost but they quote power ratings that are substantially higher - somewhere in the 5-10kw range. In terms of output (if not practicality) it will absolutely eat a modern 2.5kw amp for breakfast.

 

I guess that the point I'm skirting around is that the power figures quoted by the manufacturers are largely a work of optimistic marketing fiction, bodged to produce the most impressive number - often at the point of destruction, rather than actual measured engineering reports, referencing testing methodology. I find myself very skeptical/cynical and think that comparison via ad blurb is fairly pointless compared to empirical comparison.

 

So, do you have a 200w amp that seems more powerful than someone else's 800w? It's quite possible

[itu]

@godathunder, I think you are asking right questions. First of all, class D amps are measured in a different way than old A, AB, or B class amps. Then the distortion figures may differ a lot from manufacturer to another which offers a big variety to publish watts. 

 

Watts are funny, because everybody understands one figure - that is only faintly related to loudness. Where are discussions about sensitivity (dB @ 1 W/m), loudness (dB), frequency response (50 - 4000 Hz ±6 dB) and so on? 

 

The only reasonable way to measure loudness sure requires a system (amp + cab). Sometimes it would be very eye opening to arrange an open air test session where anybody could bring a system to the place and then someone with decent equipment and noise source would make measurements. 

[Twigman]

On 07/02/2026 at 16:39, la bam said:

They're too loud for home practice

I quite happily practice at home with a Tecamp Puma 900 - a 900W class D head - into a Barefaced Supermidget.

It's not too loud....the amp has volume knobs - they work both ways.

 

I use the same rig in rehearsals but on larger stages i replace the Supermidget with my Super12T.

 

 

Edited 2 hours ago by Twigman

[TimR]

2 hours ago, godathunder said:

Do you think that all manufacturers measure their amps' power output the same way?

 

No. They don't.

 

There will be a THD% accompanying the X Watts at 1kHz. That will tell you how much distortion the amp suffers at that output. The lower the better.