Stolen Limelight Precision...

[Lozz196]

Ah, thanks, well fingers crossed whichever courier deals doesn`t take it straight to Sotheby`s.

[wateroftyne]

I’m just pleased the bass has been found.

 

I’m sure if Fender take umbrage re: the replica thing, they’ll let Mark know, and he’ll react accordingly:
 

In the meantime… let people enjoy their nice basses, eh?

[Kev]

59 minutes ago, wateroftyne said:

I’m just pleased the bass has been found.

 

I’m sure if Fender take umbrage re: the replica thing, they’ll let Mark know, and he’ll react accordingly:
 

In the meantime… let people enjoy their nice basses, eh?

 

I don't think its about not wanting people to enjoy their basses, and more about insurance issues that may arise, should they go missing and potentially be viewed as counterfeit.  A healthy discussion, I think?  Literally wasn't something that occurred to me until reading this thread, and I'm wondering this this is why the many and several Ric copies and similar often ship with a blank TRC with a fake TRC in the case, to avoid counterfeit accusations?

 

The risk here is the bass being confiscated if the Police need to get involved, rather than returned to Mark, but given insurance isn't involved here I think its unlikely there would be any opportunity for any complaint to be raised, and hopefully Parcelforce will just sort it out with a dash of compensation for the ridiculousness of it all.

[ped]

If you're worried about the police getting involved, don't be 🤭

[dmccombe7]

1 hour ago, Lozz196 said:

Agree, I`ve a Sandberg Superlight being made at the moment, which Mark has arranged, when he receives it I`ll drive and collect rather than chance all this malarkey.

I bought my polar white VM4 from Mark and no issues with delivery but i remember thinking at the time it was a bit too far for me to drive down from Glasgow area.

Can't remember exactly where they're based and can't find on their website.

I did however drive down to Bass Direct once for a look at 5 stringers and came away with a Dingwall NG2 5er.

Dave

[Dunk]

The fact that it has been withdrawn is really good news and it sounds like we might soon get an update that this is back in the hands of its rightful owner. Fingers crossed 🤞🏻 

[dmccombe7]

I thought Fender did have an issue at the start and that's why they added the Limelight Logo and serial number on the back of the headstock. I was sure i read that somewhere and Fender were ok with that.

Dave

[Jean-Luc Pickguard]

I very much doubt that Fender would be okay with basses they don't build being sold with the Fender logo on. I would imagine that limelight is very much flying below Fender's radar.

[Dunk]

Can I just say.. this thread started with a request from a fellow BC’er to help out a well respected UK luthier and a fellow bass player to find a stolen bass which it now appears ‘we’ have done. That is what a bass player community is all about, and if the bass is recovered successfully we should be proud. A small minority have chosen not to do that and to pile in with other views when they could have spent that time helping a fellow bassist. I think they’ve let themselves down by doing that. 

[12stringbassist]

I'm watching this because I want to see the owner get it back.

[wateroftyne]

18 minutes ago, 12stringbassist said:

I'm watching this because I want to see the owner get it back.

Quite.. it's strange to see some of the other takes on this this thread.

[Kev]

1 hour ago, Dunk said:

Can I just say.. this thread started with a request from a fellow BC’er to help out a well respected UK luthier and a fellow bass player to find a stolen bass which it now appears ‘we’ have done. That is what a bass player community is all about, and if the bass is recovered successfully we should be proud. A small minority have chosen not to do that and to pile in with other views when they could have spent that time helping a fellow bassist. I think they’ve let themselves down by doing that. 

 

I can't say I've picked that vibe up from anyone in particular, but I'm glad and proud it was spotted, our emails appear to have had an impact and it looks to be heading towards a happy ending  

[Sean]

7 minutes ago, Kev said:

 

I can't say I've picked that vibe up from anyone in particular, but I'm glad and proud it was spotted, our emails appear to have had an impact and it looks to be heading towards a happy ending  

There's not one post here that was against a happy ending of the bass being reunited with the owner. I went back and reread them all. In fact, there's no negativity toward Mark or the buyer. 

 

What there was, was some healthy non-conflict comment and information about some of the legal aspects and what could happen in similar circumstances, and a few well-meant warnings about certain couriers and practices.  I think it's been a useful learning experience and it reflects well on the community that we can have these discussions. 

 

 

[Steve Browning]

28 minutes ago, Sean said:

What there was, was some healthy non-conflict comment and information about some of the legal aspects and what could happen in similar circumstances, and a few well-meant warnings about certain couriers and practices.  I think it's been a useful learning experience and it reflects well on the community that we can have these discussions. 

I think such discussions are very helpful. I would hope that, in similar circumstances (derails) I have provided some useful information on VAT etc. We come from diverse backgrounds, with expertise beyond bass playing. It's helpful to provide some relevant information (with a suitably qualified background) to other people.

[dmccombe7]

Fingers crossed for a happy ending. 👍

Dave

[jonnybass]

58 minutes ago, wateroftyne said:

Quite.. it's strange to see some of the other takes on this this thread.

I've been following this thread and contributing, I did not pick up on any negativity at all. Lots of healthy discussion around the topic and some connected bits too.  If Limelight or the person who commissioned the bass think I have contributed to wishing anything other than the bass not being delivered to its rightful owner then I apologise as this was never my intention.

 

Jonny

[tauzero]

5 hours ago, fretmeister said:

it is NOT illegal to own, but it is illegal to sell and is subject to confiscation and destruction with no compensation.

 

Surely that's a minefield, as it has now been sold (which was illegal) but is now owned (which is legal) as the process of forming a contract of sale has been completed.

[police squad]

if it was my company I wouldn't be putting the Fender decal on it until it had been sold and paid for.

Then it's not mine and it was sold with no logo

Perhaps I'd pop one on after as a favour to the new owner  😁

[fretmeister]

1 minute ago, tauzero said:

 

Surely that's a minefield, as it has now been sold (which was illegal) but is now owned (which is legal) as the process of forming a contract of sale has been completed.

 

Surprisingly not - technically speaking the contract never happened as no contract makes an illegal item or act legal. Or more accurately - the contract is not enforceable. Even though the parties wanted to have a contract where one sold an item and the other bought it (like selling / buying anything else) it is the fact that it is a counterfeit item that means the contract cannot be lawful or enforced. Instead of being a contract it's an attempt to enter into an illegal contract. Semantics - yes, but an important one.

 

So looking at this from either side in the event of a First Sale - from the maker to the first buyer, the first buyer knowing it is not a real "X" because there's a disclaimer or something:

 

Person A makes a counterfeit (not illegal), then agrees to sell it (illegal) and posts it to Person B a bit keenly - before the money has been received. B never gets round to paying for it. If A tries to sue B, then B has a defence of "the item is illegal, so I don't owe anything" - unlikely to get anywhere with the authorities but the courts also won't order B to actually pay A because that would be enforcing an illegal contract. A never gets paid and B loses any benefit as well when it gets confiscated. 

 

Or same basic facts but money changes hands first and then A doesn't post it: B complains and A says "I don't sell counterfeits he sent me the money as a gift" or similar. Again - no rights of civil action in either direction as they both knew what they were doing.

 

Or money and item swap and then the item doesn't work properly. A cannot offer a usual sellers warranty on an illegal item, and B has no warranty rights so if A refuses to fix / replace at his expense then B has no remedy. Cannot ask a court to force a seller of a counterfeit to fix it as that would be enforcing rights that would exist under a lawful contract and this isn't one.

 

Whoever is holding the item after the first sale (it not being illegal before that) is where it might be confiscated from. Then the person holding has to try and undo the past to get their money back.

 

This is why the rationale of "next seller might not be honest" is so important:

 

If B buys it knowing it is a counterfeit then they basically give up any rights to refunds / actions against A because they knew the item was counterfeit. If it's got a makers logo and the seller has been completely open about it not being a real "X" then neither side can say they didn't know.

 

But if person C gets it from B and has no idea, then even if the item is confiscated and destroyed C can seek a refund from B because they have been a victim of fraud, but B can't go back further as they knew what they were doing when they got it from A.

 

There's a thing called "Equity" in law and that means you need to have "clean hands" when asking the court for assistance - so if B willingly took part in an illegal act they lose the right to get any assistance from the courts about that illegal act.

 

And it can get a lot more complicated than that. That's why Trading Standards are never bothered with small outfits and spend all their time scouring big markets for counterfeit Burberry and Armani stuff - that stuff is cranked out by massive factories.

 

Here's a nice twist - some things like Burberry / high fashion stuff that is counterfeit has been made in the factories that make the real stuff and just left by the back door! Still counterfeit as well as stolen even though they are identical and made to the exact spec etc.

 

It's a fascinating and often head-melting topic!