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alexa3020

Do all class D heads really lose their thud at volume?

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50 minutes ago, alexa3020 said:

You may have to forgive my ignorance on this subject.

for me, when it’s loud I struggle to hear the detail in tone quite as well. This is true of all amps I have tried.

What I can tell is how the bass cuts through in the mix and it just doesn’t feel the same up at higher volumes - perhaps it is a headroom thing - I’m not sure, but I don’t feel like I’m really pushing the head too hard.

take your point about the room. Strangely, I’ve always thought it sounded better in larger rooms.

I've got to drive some folks about a bit today, but I can do a proper full-on nerd post later if you like!

It's mainly gain-staging- there are numerous points along the signal chain which can hit a limit, the preamp can clip, the power amp, or the speaker can reach its physical limits. A very high output from the preamp can clip the power amp, even with the master dial down low. A super clean pre into a few kilowatt power amp into a 1" hi-fi speaker with be very limited in output, as the driver will max out very early.

Also, factor in that each drop of an octave doubles the frequency, therefore the energy. So as you go lower the size of the wave (and electrical energy and driver excursion) increase exponentially. That is why it is the low end which is the first thing to show signs of weakness at volume.

Edited by Jus Lukin

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Having read all the above posts it seems to me you may have a combination of weaknesses.


Weakness 1. As others have said, the TC electronics form of compression is one thing and an average power-supply add up to a less than stellar sound at high volume probably regardless of the "D" class power module. Even so, 3-400 watts should good enough for most purposes.


Weakness 2. In your post  from about 13.13 you say you "struggle to hear the tone" and "the bass does not cut through the mix" at high volume. Well maybe you're also driving the speakers too hard as well. When driven in that state the drive units will also "compress" with increasing input power. That could be where you're losing the tone.


Aside of whether you change the amp for a different class, why not try a temporary expedient. Cut the Bass. Turn up the low-mids and high-mids. Leave the treble where it is and re-try. If you need more definition turn up the high-mids a little more.

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1 hour ago, andy67 said:

Have you tried the Bugera Veyron BV1001T? It’s pretty hot! 

Yup. No lack of thump from mine at any volume, and it's loud enough to wake the Kracken. 

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This may be something to do with A/B amps sounding better when pushed, just like valve amps, whereas perhaps Class D amps just sound the same? I don’t know, I’ve never had to push a Class D amp to the point where it struggled but on bigger stages my ABM600 had a much different feel to the sound than when on smaller stages. 

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My experience is a bit limited, but it seems to me that (irrespective of class) there's no replacement for displacement... or Power.

I started out with a no-name 80w 1x12. It got utterly drowned out in my first band practice.

I replaced it with a Trace 1110, but I think I was only getting half the power without an extension cab.

Next up, a Trace SMX combo and a choice of extension cabs to to liberate the full 300w. That still wasn't enough. 

I ended up with an Ampeg SVP pro into a QSC PLX 1202. 1200Wrms into 4 ohm, about 600Wrms into 8. That did the trick. Still class A/B, though. 

I'd not baulk at a class D amp, as long as it had plenty of power to spare,  and I got a chance to test it at real-world (on stage/rehearsal with a drummer) SPL.

 

 

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My  Darkglass MT900 has never struggled at all,in fact I think  my ear drums would implode well before it ran out of oomph.

It is insanely powerful 

Edited by artisan
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Well, there seems to be enough people speaking in favour of class D for me to take a punt on it.

Ashdown RM 500

Aguilar tonehammer 500

eich t500

gk mb fusion 500

decisions decisions!

I’ll also keep my eyes open for a used ABM evo 4 . I do like the valve drive on that head

Edited by alexa3020

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20 minutes ago, alexa3020 said:

Well, there seems to be enough people speaking in favour of class D for me to take a punt on it.

Ashdown RM 500

Aguilar tonehammer 500

eich t500

gk mb fusion 500

decisions decisions!

I’ll also keep my eyes open for a used ABM evo 4 . I do like the valve drive on that head

That's 4 amps with quite distinctive and different tonal signatures. An interesting and diverse selection. I would go for the used ABM600 evo4 if it was me....

Edited by Mudpup

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20 minutes ago, alexa3020 said:

Well, there seems to be enough people speaking in favour of class D for me to take a punt on it.

Ashdown RM 500

Aguilar tonehammer 500

eich t500

gk mb fusion 500

decisions decisions!

I’ll also keep my eyes open for a used ABM evo 4 . I do like the valve drive on that head

Try the Bugera Veyron BV1001T you won’t regret it 👍

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7 minutes ago, Mudpup said:

That's 4 amps with quite distinctive and different tonal signatures. An interesting and diverse selection. I would go for the used ABM600 evo4 if it was me....

To be fair, there just heads I’ve shortlisted based on budget and reviews.

im gonna find some time to visit bass gallery in Camden, and try some out. They also stock bf 210s there, so I’ll be able to test with the cab I use too.

I know you mentioned the Quilter earlier, that head has caught my attention, but the eq seems a little limited. I know there is a used one for sale on here not too far away either. Might be worth a little investigation

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31 minutes ago, alexa3020 said:

To be fair, there just heads I’ve shortlisted based on budget and reviews.

im gonna find some time to visit bass gallery in Camden, and try some out. They also stock bf 210s there, so I’ll be able to test with the cab I use too.

I know you mentioned the Quilter earlier, that head has caught my attention, but the eq seems a little limited. I know there is a used one for sale on here not too far away either. Might be worth a little investigation

The Quilter really isn't as limited as you may think although it is a tiny bit treble shy unless you increase the scoop on the Contour.

You have to understand what the 2 tone controls do - it'll take 5 minutes if you clear the idea of bass, mid and treble controls from your mind. Think of them as shape controls instead.

The Depth control either lowers or boosts the bass depending on which way you turn it so thats pretty standard. The Contour increases a mid scoop if you turn it to the left and a treble cut if you turn it to the right. If you want to boost treble - turn up the scoop with the Contour, back off the bass with the Depth and add volume to taste. If you want more mids you need to cut the bass with the Depth, increase the treble cut with the Contour and increase volume to taste. That makes it sound complicated but it really isn't. My perfect gig settings tend to be 2 clicks left on the Contour and 1 click increase on the Depth (it has clicky knobs btw). 

It's naturally a very clean amp - it won't do overdrive but it will do crystal clear if you run the gain under 3 and goose the master. If you run the gain at around midday (5) upwards it really fattens up but without softening (more than any other class D i've used so far anyway). And its bonkers loud.

Edited by Mudpup
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In the Pirate Studios in Edinburgh, they have an Ashdown RM 500, going through a newish Ashdown 4x10.

The setup had a really impressive thump at volume, when the band was playing loud.

After a few rehearsals, I was very impressed and brought in my old UK built, Ashdown Evo III, for a comparison. 

There wasn't much difference in the sound and If anything, the Ashdown RM 500 was the better sounding amp.

 

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7 minutes ago, gjones said:

There wasn't much difference in the sound and If anything, the Ashdown RM 500 was the better sounding amp.

I would be quite keen on trying the RM500s (or whatever power), but in reality, I will have probably forgotten all about it by the time we are gigging again.

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6 minutes ago, gjones said:

In the Pirate Studios in Edinburgh, they have an Ashdown RM 500, going through a newish Ashdown 4x10.

The setup had a really impressive thump at volume, when the band was playing loud.

After a few rehearsals, I was very impressed and brought in my old UK built, Ashdown Evo III, for a comparison. 

There wasn't much difference in the sound and If anything, the Ashdown RM 500 was the better sounding amp.

 

That’s interesting. From what I understand the evo iv is a step up on the evo3. I have used the Abm Evo 4 1200w at rehearsal room and I like it a lot. Particularly the valve drive which is way, way more subtle than the rootmaster.

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For many many years I used a Trace V4 through the Trace 4x12 and horn cab,switched the cab to a lighter Schroeder 4x12 and horn later.I kept the last Trace V4 (I always had 2) until recently.I only used the Trace with the volume maxed at 5 ,the bass was pretty high though...old school blues band..I started using a TC rh 450 through the Schroder either the 2 x12 and horn or the 4x12 and horn and it did the job fine...then I added a Barefaced super  twin to the rh450  and  I like it a lot,still quite old school bass heavy, jazz and TI flats ,I bought a second one as a backup and sold the last V4 recently.I did try the V4 through my Barefaced midget just at home and the combination was not for me...I loved the V4 but in the end the weight and my age were the deciding factors...

ps the guitar player was using a Fender twin flat out where as now he is using a 30 or 50 watt valve amp,so  I guess I am not needing to  push the rh450  as hard as I used to push the Trace V4(220 Watts)...maybe😀

 

 

Edited by onehandclapping

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Just as a retort to the TC bashing regarding power output, the BQ and BH series heads do not suffer with the goosed power ratings, they give out exactly what they say on the tin. This problem affected the RH series heads only.

My BH550 made mincemeat of my LM2 and GK MB500.

Edited by 40hz

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1 minute ago, 40hz said:

This problem affected the RH series heads only.

Fixed it for you:

'This blatantly misleading marketing was only applied to the RH heads, but then they got found out so didn't do it anymore'.

😄

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12 hours ago, alexa3020 said:

That’s interesting. From what I understand the evo iv is a step up on the evo3. I have used the Abm Evo 4 1200w at rehearsal room and I like it a lot. Particularly the valve drive which is way, way more subtle than the rootmaster.

Yes the valve drive on the ABM EVO 4 I found to thicken up the sound and go into drive only if really digging in (so all the time with the way I play) whereas the RM Drive is more like a traditional overdrive pedal, needs fine tuning to get that drive when digging in balance right.

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Most of this comes down to one commonly used, particular model of power amp.

Go use some Powersoft amps and then state that class D is lacking.

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18 minutes ago, EBS_freak said:

Most of this comes down to one commonly used, particular model of power amp.

Go use some Powersoft amps and then state that class D is lacking.

I take it the commonly used module is from IcePower. It does seem to vary according to how it's used. As far as class D goes, Lab Gruppen amps aren't lacking, either. Just wish I could afford them. 

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27 minutes ago, EBS_freak said:

Most of this comes down to one commonly used, particular model of power amp.

Go use some Powersoft amps and then state that class D is lacking.

Can you get a class D head that uses a Powersoft module? The OP is going to be restricted by what is currently available in head format. 

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5 minutes ago, Mudpup said:

Can you get a class D head that uses a Powersoft module? The OP is going to be restricted by what is currently available in head format. 

I'd love to try a decent pre' into a Powersoft or Lab Gruppen power amp. Just need to win the lottery.

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