The best bass builder.

[ianrendall]

2 minutes ago, TrevorR said:

..cough cough... ...Wal... ...cough cough...

I just really hope Wal don’t cheapen their brand by churning out a budget range made overseas.

I was slightly disappointed when the US made SUB range of MM basses got too successful, slowing down sales of the main range as they were for all intents and purposes the same instrument at a fraction of the cost, so they decided to shift manufacturing overseas. Seems to me like a quiet admittance that their main range is overpriced and they shifted to overseas manufacture to justify the lower price. Done to remain competitive, I’m sure, but still a cynical move towards quantity over perceived quality. 

[Hellzero]

I've owned an impressive list of basses (https://www.basschat.co.uk/topic/329699-bldy-gas/?page=2) and tried a lot more including Alembic, Fodera, Ken Smith, Modulus, ... and other boutique basses.

I simply focus on the ability of the bass to reproduce the fundamental of all the notes played (including the low B), the build quality, the choice of woods (and why these particularly), the builder himself and of course the ergonomic. An electric bass is before all an acoustic bass, so it must sound perfectly balanced unplugged. My pickup choice goes to the single coil models because they only sense the string at one position and I do tend to prefer passive basses. To date only three luthiers have reached all this : Ken Lawrence, Leduc and Lefay.

But I need to put my hands on a real Fodera Anthony Jackson as I'm pretty sure it will also tick all my boxes too.

Sorry, but lots of makers are cheating through the on board preamp and heavily anti-fidelity pickup(s), and especially the fact that our ear can rebuild the note through the harmonics.

And it takes time to build an instrument correctly, a lot of time because of the wood drying process between stages.

Edited September 25, 2018 by Hellzero
through is better than htrough, no ?

[ambient]

12 minutes ago, Hellzero said:

I've owned an impressive list of basses (https://www.basschat.co.uk/topic/329699-bldy-gas/?page=2) and tried a lot more including Alembic, Fodera, Ken Smith, Modulus, ... and other boutique basses.

I simply focus on the ability of the bass to reproduce the fundamental of all the notes played (including the low B), the build quality, the choice of woods (and why these particularly), the builder himself and of course the ergonomy. An electric bass is before all an acoustic bass, so it must sound perfectly balanced unplugged. My pickup choice goes to the single coil models because they only sense the string at one position and I do tend to prefer passive basses. To date only three luthiers have reached all this : Ken Lawrence, Leduc and Lefay.

But I need to put my hands on a real Fodera Anthony Jackson as I'm pretty sure it will also tick all my boxes too.

Sorry, but lots of makers are cheating through the on board preamp and heavily anti-fidelity pickup(s), and especially the fact that our ear can rebuild the note htrough the harmonics.

And it takes time to build an instrument correctly, a lot of time because of the wood drying process between stages.

I would absolutely love an Anthony Jackson Fodera, though not the latest model.

[fiatcoupe432]

I ve also played/owed  loads of basses and the only bass that really stucked in my mind (not with me , big regret btw) is nikola Adamovic , 

another great builder !! One of the best in my opinion 

[ianrendall]

18 minutes ago, fiatcoupe432 said:

One of the best in my opinion 

And therein lies the answer to this entire thread. 

[TheGreek]

2 hours ago, ped said:

As mentioned I really like bass builders who make more than just the ‘chassis’ and bolt bought in components to them (simplifying it slightly). For me the top makers are the ones who make bespoke pickups, hardware and circuits themselves, or at least work with companies who make them for the builder specifically.

I also value above a lot of other factors some innovation. So that rules out most people making jazz bass clones. I think a top maker has their own design language and has a no compromise approach, making something idiosyncratic that might not sell in high volume but is the result of a no compromise way of approaching the instrument. 

THIS...

There are some very valid statements in the discussion so far, however I think that one of the biggest factors in assessing "best" is going to be "personal choice" - what suits me, isn't going to suit everybody else (thankfully). If I were the yardstick, Fender, Rickenbacker and Gibson would all be out of business.

It would be unlike me if I didn't throw the cat in amongst the pigeons - one of my favourite basses is Bass Collection SGC Nanyo - well built and very playable - currently very affordable but prices are starting to reflect what owners think of their worth...Unless you've owned at least one you won't understand why somebody would want a dated, cheap and stylised instrument like these....

On the other hand, and more to the point of this discussion, I've owned numerous high end builds, IMO some mediocre, some excellent, some too excellent...basses, so nice, that I wouldn't take them out of my home which sort of defeats the point of having them. It's easy to forget that they are tools rather than works of art.

Are high end instruments worth the extra we pay? (I know, another discussion in itself..) You're probably significantly more for seemingly little difference or improvement but it's those "little" differences that takes "ordinary" to "elite". I'm happy to pay that premium for something that is suited to me.

Of those high end instruments I've owned, I'd happily recommend ACG, GB, Overwater, Ritter, Jaydee, Veillette Citron, Status and Spector. All make, IMO, instruments that surprised me and made me smile when I first picked one up and started playing.

Another builder I would highly recommend, not only because he's a one man show, building a handful per year but because he builds genuinely good instruments, our own Andy Rogers. I love both the basses he's built for me. We discussed in detail my requirements, he listened and heard what I wanted and I got what I specified which is, after all, what we expect from a custom bass builder.

I also know, however, that despite people thinking they know what they want from a high end instrument, not everybody gets on with their own specifications, which probably explains why we see ACGs for sale.

Those which disappointed me?? Every Musicman I've played except for my 1996 which I sold, nearly every Warwick I've played, both my Wals, the two Ricks I tried back in the 80s and (controversially) most FENDERS!! Mass produced doesn't work for me...

Remember, maybe what you want doesn't come off the shelf...which explains why we are lucky enough to have the variety of basses we do and choice of builders to go to.

When it comes down to it, it's your money you're spending....go find something you really like. 

[visog]

'Best' is the problematic term here as it's so broad. With a bass as purely an object, the brands cited, whilst I agree are amazing (though I've not played them all myself). However with a bass as a tool, the brands mentioned would largely be redundant or at least over-specified for say 'Rock' as a style for example.

I think we may have narrowed down the field for Jazz fusion maybe but the brands listed here - Fodera, Alembics, Wal to name a few repeated, are largely ignored in many styles. Yes, we can think of exceptions.

I guess it depends on whether a bass is a object or a tool... 

[chris_b]

Best bass builder? I'm sure there are a lot guys who qualify to be on that list, but "apex" basses I've owned have been Wal (Pete Stevens and Paul Herman), Sadowsky (Roger and Yoshi Kikuchi), Mike Lull and Lakland (Hugh McFarland).

[ianrendall]

10 minutes ago, visog said:

'Best' is the problematic term here as it's so broad. With a bass as purely an object, the brands cited, whilst I agree are amazing (though I've not played them all myself). However with a bass as a tool, the brands mentioned would largely be redundant or at least over-specified for say 'Rock' as a style for example.

I think we may have narrowed down the field for Jazz fusion maybe but the brands listed here - Fodera, Alembics, Wal to name a few repeated, are largely ignored in many styles. Yes, we can think of exceptions.

I guess it depends on whether a bass is a object or a tool... 

In my original post I was meaning as an object. A functional bass object. An object where, for the builder, time, money and materials are absolutely uncompromised and without unnecessary flourishes such as fancy inlays, bindings or diamonds. The absolute purest, most sonically transparent and microscopically researched and tooled instrument possible. 

[LeftyP]

This is an interesting discussion because, although the player will notice the difference in build quality and playability (is that actually a word?), I doubt your average punter, listening in a club, could tell the difference between the sound of a custom job and a £99 Argos special.  Would you be happy taking your custom built, expensive instrument into a beer swilling pub full of ravers?

My wife's oboe is worth several thousand pounds but she also has a cheaper student model as she teaches oboe.  To the untrained ear (mine) they both sound like..... an oboe!

If you have the money and want to treat yourself to a bespoke bass guitar, help yourself and you'll get no criticism from me - it's nice to have quality items like guitars, watches, cameras etc.  There must be a crossover point though where the amount of money spent does not offer any significant improvement.

[TheGreek]

12 minutes ago, LeftyP said:

There must be a crossover point though where the amount of money spent does not offer any significant improvement.

I think that many of us will agree with this.

Will it stop us buying expensive, high end equipment?? Unlikely (me, anyway)

[BigRedX]

1 hour ago, LeftyP said:

This is an interesting discussion because, although the player will notice the difference in build quality and playability (is that actually a word?), I doubt your average punter, listening in a club, could tell the difference between the sound of a custom job and a £99 Argos special.  Would you be happy taking your custom built, expensive instrument into a beer swilling pub full of ravers?

I think a lot of the time Basschat members have an over-protective feeling towards instruments and also that the value of an instrument matters to others.

IME if an instrument is going to get stolen, it will happen whether it is a sub £100 Fender copy or a high end bass costing several thousands. The value is almost certainly irrelevant to the person stealing it. They simply won't know what it is worth.

10-15 years ago when I was buying a lot of instruments and was the musician who seemingly had a different bass at every gig, the one that caught all the punter's eyes was not the Gus or the Pedulla or the Overwater or the Sei - each worth several thousand pounds - but a Traben Phoenix with it's bling fingerboard inlays and over the top flame shape chrome bridge which had cost me the grand total of £300 including shipping and import from the US.

Also in 40 years of gigging I've never seen a guitar or bass receive anything worse than surface damage at a gig unless it was being deliberately being abused by the person playing it. Guitars and basses are resilient things. It takes a lot to damage one.

Edited September 25, 2018 by BigRedX

[Hellzero]

In my previous post, I explained what I'm looking for, not who is the best bass builder. That said, the sound is in your fingers, whatever bass or amp you'll play, you'll  tend to reach a sound : yours, that's all. And to get it, you have (not necessarily known by yourself) specifications which need to be there to suit you. So we all have our preferred builders, but explaining why is for some quite difficult.

@ambient : of course, not the new Fodera Anthony Jackson, but the Presentation I.

To summarise, there is no best bass builder, there is the one(s) you prefer and if it's perfect for you, then all boxes are ticked, whatever brand or price. 

[jacko]

47 minutes ago, LeftyP said:

  Would you be happy taking your custom built, expensive instrument into a beer swilling pub full of ravers?

 

Yes. Since 1996 I've only taken Alembic basses to gigs. Hasn't made any difference to me or the band what kind of music is being played from folk thru country to out and out metal. (never played any jazz fusion but I do like to listen to it.)

[Newfoundfreedom]

Harley Benton

[ambient]

10 minutes ago, Hellzero said:

In my previous post, I explained what I'm looking for, not who is the best bass builder. That said, the sound is in your fingers, whatever bass or amp you'll play, you'll  tend to reach a sound : yours, that's all. And to get it, you have (not necessarily known by yourself) specifications which need to be there to suit you. So we all have our preferred builders, but explaining why is for some quite difficult.

@ambient : of course, not the new Fodera Anthony Jackson, but the Presentation I.

To summarise, there is no best bass builder, there is the one(s) you prefer and if it's perfect for you, then all boxes are ticked, whatever brand or price. 

That’s what was inferring to with the video that I posted earlier; when Scot does the blind test with the basses, he still sounded like him, him playing a £10k Fodera or a £100 cheapo from Amazon.

[mikel]

1 hour ago, ianrendall said:

In my original post I was meaning as an object. A functional bass object. An object where, for the builder, time, money and materials are absolutely uncompromised and without unnecessary flourishes such as fancy inlays, bindings or diamonds. The absolute purest, most sonically transparent and microscopically researched and tooled instrument possible. 

Another can of worms right there. Would that mean nothing but the sound of the string vibrating? If not it must take into consideration the "Sound" of the materials used in the body and neck, and also the bridge and first fret or nut. Then the influence of the type of wiring used and the pots and circuits. For me its what the materials, hardware and circuits "add" to the sound that make an instrument unique, and If I feel its just right for me then its the best.

[ianrendall]

27 minutes ago, mikel said:

Another can of worms right there. Would that mean nothing but the sound of the string vibrating? If not it must take into consideration the "Sound" of the materials used in the body and neck, and also the bridge and first fret or nut. Then the influence of the type of wiring used and the pots and circuits. For me its what the materials, hardware and circuits "add" to the sound that make an instrument unique, and If I feel its just right for me then its the best.

Agreed and again a subjective issue. There are a few basses out there with just a volume control, the Fodera Anthony Jackson to name one IIRC. But again this relies on player input and the knowledge of the builder. 

Edited September 25, 2018 by ianrendall

[ianrendall]

Some very good points raised so far which brings me to a slightly off topic question. 

Has there ever been a bass made where the neck and body are milled from one single solid piece of wood? No bolts, no glue. 

[BigRedX]

20 minutes ago, ianrendall said:

Some very good points raised so far which brings me to a slightly off topic question. 

Has there ever been a bass made where the neck and body are milled from one single solid piece of wood? No bolts, no glue. 

Yes. There was one in the Bass Gallery in Camden many years ago. It was one of the many basses I tried on my journey to find my ideal fretless bass. Unfortunately my main memories of it were rather underwhelming. IIRC Ped has played this instrument as well.

I'm pretty certain that there is also at least one Ritter made from a single piece of wood.

[Hellzero]

The Steinberger's were made of a single composite material but with screwed on parts.

Basslab is making basses molded in one piece of composite material.

And certainly other makers too.

[TrevorR]

3 hours ago, ianrendall said:

I just really hope Wal don’t cheapen their brand by churning out a budget range made overseas.

I was slightly disappointed when the US made SUB range of MM basses got too successful, slowing down sales of the main range as they were for all intents and purposes the same instrument at a fraction of the cost, so they decided to shift manufacturing overseas. Seems to me like a quiet admittance that their main range is overpriced and they shifted to overseas manufacture to justify the lower price. Done to remain competitive, I’m sure, but still a cynical move towards quantity over perceived quality. 

Very much doubt that would ever happen... but it nearly did once...! As he was getting increasingly ill around about 2003-4 Pete was in discussions with one of the big UK distributors (he never did say publicly which one) about doing a lower cost, far east Wal bass variant. I guess kinda like the Tanglewood Overwaters. Maybe even ultimately selling on the brand. However, he pulled out of the deal - I'm speculating wildly here but the logic holds - because I think he saw them as being kosher Far East Wals but taking advantage of more automated, cheaper Far East manufacturing costs and techniques. But still very much a Wal. I suspect that he was getting vibes from the distributor about them ending up with cheap mass produced plywood Wal shaped basses with BBOT bridges and off the shelf no-name pickups... Wals in name only.

Can't see Paul going down that route!

[TrevorR]

2 hours ago, LeftyP said:

This is an interesting discussion because, although the player will notice the difference in build quality and playability (is that actually a word?), I doubt your average punter, listening in a club, could tell the difference between the sound of a custom job and a £99 Argos special.  

My wife's oboe is worth several thousand pounds but she also has a cheaper student model as she teaches oboe.  To the untrained ear (mine) they both sound like..... an oboe!

" I doubt your average punter, listening in a club, could tell the difference" This has never, ever been (and will never ever be) a consideration for me in choosing a bass. Do I feel good playing a bass? Does it "fit" me? Does it do all the things I want it to do and produce the sounds I want it to make? Do I love the sound it makes? Does it feel great to play? Do I like how it looks? Do I LOVE playing that bass?

Those are my considerations. Whether its one of my Wals or the Aria and customised Squier Jazz I used to play back in my folk rock band back in university.

 

2 hours ago, LeftyP said:

Would you be happy taking your custom built, expensive instrument into a beer swilling pub full of ravers?

Oh, and this was my gigging rig from  "beer swilling pubs full of ravers" to stately homes (full of drunk ravers) to theatres to clubs... so Yes! Yes I would.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 25, 2018 by TrevorR

[LukeFRC]

5 hours ago, Hellzero said:

I've owned an impressive list of basses (https://www.basschat.co.uk/topic/329699-bldy-gas/?page=2) and tried a lot more including Alembic, Fodera, Ken Smith, Modulus, ... and other boutique basses.

I simply focus on the ability of the bass to reproduce the fundamental of all the notes played (including the low B), the build quality, the choice of woods (and why these particularly), the builder himself and of course the ergonomic. An electric bass is before all an acoustic bass, so it must sound perfectly balanced unplugged. My pickup choice goes to the single coil models because they only sense the string at one position and I do tend to prefer passive basses. To date only three luthiers have reached all this : Ken Lawrence, Leduc and Lefay.

But I need to put my hands on a real Fodera Anthony Jackson as I'm pretty sure it will also tick all my boxes too.

Sorry, but lots of makers are cheating through the on board preamp and heavily anti-fidelity pickup(s), and especially the fact that our ear can rebuild the note through the harmonics.

And it takes time to build an instrument correctly, a lot of time because of the wood drying process between stages.

for the best recreation of the fundamental I would be looking at a Basslab LBow ... and engineering that means there isn't a need to think about wood drying process...

4 hours ago, ianrendall said:

In my original post I was meaning as an object. A functional bass object. An object where, for the builder, time, money and materials are absolutely uncompromised and without unnecessary flourishes such as fancy inlays, bindings or diamonds. The absolute purest, most sonically transparent and microscopically researched and tooled instrument possible. 

the most sonically transparent bass I had was a Peavey T40 - massive boat anchor with a giant bridge and almost complete isolation of the strings from the body - it sounded like strings vibrating with very very little coloration from the wood. Everything on it custom made for the job, and massive engineering steps taken in order to make it happen which set the direction for instrument manufacturer afterwards... so if we're after sonic transparent and microscopically researched and tooled instrument possible I would suggest a Peavey T40. 

[roonjuice]

I own many of the names mentioned above. When I went for a total custom build, I went round the houses with a good few of the bespoke builders listed above. I settled on alpher, and in my eyes it was the right decision.