El Bajo Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 Hi all Apologies in advance of the long post, Its a rant but also a request for advice. I'l try to keep it short and balanced. I joined up with a guitarist about 8 months ago who had a whole load of demos recorded on a Boos BSR that I thought had potential. Its pretty simple metal but very catchy. I'm from a prog rock background but felt like a change, so I went for it. Over the next 6 months we tried in vein looking for singers, drummer and lead guitarists to no avail. In the end an old friend of his who has been in some well know UK Metal Bands put some scratch vocals to the demos just for a bit of fun. They sounded great so the Guitarist thought f*ck it I'm going to record an EP then get a band together. He had a big budget, well 3 months wages for me, to plow into it and hired a producer/guitarist that had been in bands previoulsy with the singer. He never asked me for anything back. Drummer wise the producer used superior drummer and agreed to put some solos in the songs where required. All sounded great. The only draw back was getting rehersal time together was so difficult, the singer lives in Yorkshire so we never practiced with him, it was just me and the guitarist in a room playing along to drum beats but everything sounded fine to me. I worked my ass of on these songs, there where 5 for an EP. I transcribed them on Power tabs. Not only the tabs but also making sure the standard notaton was correct and in time. I carefully considered bass lines that where interesting and fitted the song, I also took into consideration that I needed to be flexible because ideas or last minute changes can happen in a recording environment. The big day came, or should I say 2 week scheduled time in Bradford. I booked two days off, precious days because my holiday allowance is low due to holidays and childcare booked in advance. That day got reduced to a day because the singer had child care issues and needed one of my days. I thought ok, I'm prepared and I can sacrifice one song that stays very faithful to the original bass line thought out by the guitarist so he can play it. On the day things didn't go to well, out of the 4 songs 2 I were all my own playing. 1 was mainly the guitarist because the producer wanted the original writer to play the verses in order to get it nice and tight...which was fine becasue he plays with a pick so he could really articulate those percussive muted notes, and some other parts becasue they clashed with the vocals or I just couldnt nail. The other he played large portions to due to changes and it saved time. It hurt my ego a little to see someone else playing my parts and I felt a bit of a failure...how can I tell people that cool riff was me playing when it wasn't. But I took it and thought its for the greater good and time IS limited. During the rest of the recording period I went back to work and didn't really hear much, which was fine. To be honest I'd worked hard and wanted a break for a week from the bass and the band. Last night I got an email from the guitarist saying he'd had to re-record large portions of the bass. All the parts that I thought where clever and added value and basically my style. And I know what he would have recorded, very simplistic in the pocket bass lines, which is all good except its not me playing on there. He didn't call at the time and tell me he was doing it he just did it. He said parts clashed with vocals, or guitar, or just didn't sound good in the mix. He might aswell just done the whole lot! Firstly I feel like a failure as a bassist. 13 years I've playing and this is the culmination of it. Secondly, I've told friends family that the demos are going to sound great, I'm playing on it and I'm proud of what I've done.. blah blah blah. Now theres very little of me playing, when I say me, I mean my feel. they've probably left in the very simplistic parts that I've done. So I'm going to feel pretty stupid if people comment on bass lines that I haven't written or played. Then there's the live situation, playing bass lines that I didn't create. There is nothing to feel proud of here. What do I do? Sack bass off, because clearly I'm not as good as I thought I was? Sack the band off and find a band with more creative freedom and who respect one another, though it means starting from scratch? Put this experience aside and try better next time, be more involved with the writing in the first place, simplify my lines so that it fits with what everybody wants, sell my 6 string and play with a pick? [i]I'm not slating 4 strings or picks, its just what I've been playing for the last 8 years![/i] Just play as a session musician, the guitarist is a great song writer, I can't compare, just play what he wants me to play and go along for the ride? The band has just been signed, the EP has all the artwork completed photshoot imminent, drummers and guitarists lined up for auditions, gigs in good venues due to contacts via the singer. Theres good opportunity here. Its just the Guitarist seems to dominate everything, the planning, songwriting, album design, who we hire and fire, my bass lines! I even invited a good friend of mine to join the band as a lead some time ago. He left because he felt to constricted, nothing was ever good enough. If you've made it to the end, thanks for reading, I appreciate it as this is really important to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Jack Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 [quote name='El Bajo' timestamp='1338365497' post='1673190'] What do I do? Sack bass off, because clearly I'm not as good as I thought I was? Sack the band off and find a band with more creative freedom and who respect one another, though it means starting from scratch? Put this experience aside and try better next time, be more involved with the writing in the first place, simplify my lines so that it fits with what everybody wants, sell my 6 string and play with a pick? [i]I'm not slating 4 strings or picks, its just what I've been playing for the last 8 years![/i] Just play as a session musician, the guitarist is a great song writer, I can't compare, just play what he wants me to play and go along for the ride? [/quote] Give up bass? No! Someone else prefers a different line or style ... that's fine. It doesn't mean that you can't play. Give up the band? Doesn't sound like a band to me, sounds like a songwriter/guitarist with some backing musicians. Nothing wrong with that (it worked for Bowie, after all). Try better next time? Always, always, always. Play as a session musician? If that's on offer, grab it with both hands and learn as much as you can. Meanwhile, start a "proper" band as a side-project. Good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul torch Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 Sounds like he wants a session musician. Difficult but I would be tempted to ask for my investment (3 months salary?) back and for him to pay you for your time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Rock Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 (edited) That's must be really frustrating! The guitarist sees this as his baby, so I'd say the only realistic way to stay with the band is to do the session player thing. I wouldn't take it personally, as I'm sure your playing is fine, it's not just the style that this dude wants, and he calls the shots! If you can, have a part time side project which offers total creative freedom, but the guitarist's band can be the bread and butter. edit - Happy Jack articulated my thoughts perfectly, read that instead! Edited May 30, 2012 by Roland Rock Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddatom Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 It sounds like a great opportunity for some experience and networking. Why not just do it for fun? It's a shame if you thought you were creatively involved, and obviously that's going to sting at first, but i'd just try to move on and take the opportunity you have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Len_derby Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 Unfortunately guitarists have 'history' on this one. To the best of my knowledge Keith Richards did it to Bill Wyman and Ronnie Wood did it to Ronnie Laine. Take a deep breath, don't take it personally. Move on. I know a guitarist who did this to a drummer's recored parts. He lost two teeth as a consequence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gust0o Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 Odd one, mate; we'd all react in different ways, so I wouldn't wish to colour your experience with my own emotions - you're not me, and I wouldn't want to give duff advice on the basis of [i]well, I'd do this...[/i] So, I'm mulling it over here, and I think the best universal I can distill it down to is: [i]are you happy?[/i] Some of those questions you asked of us, you'll have answers to - are you still happy playing bass? Would you be happy being a session musician? Would you be happier just doing something different? You'll know the answers to those and you'll be able to balance against any rewards or implications following from your decisions. Best of luck, chief, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stoker Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 If he wants session players maby you should charge him session player rates? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 That is the music business and your pride has been hit. Ego's, control and agenda feature as much as anything else but in this case the guy is out of favours. Will you work for him on a wage...? because that might be your best deal as he probably thinks he holds all the decent cards. Are the gigs are good as you think and can you do them time-wise..? To be honest... getting this sort of exposure isn't so much the problem... the value of it is in what cash it generates...if any..? Then you can decide if it is worth pursuing. He has crapped on you once..and will probably do so again so you need to decide under what circumstance it is worth it. Do the good gigs for experience..? bla bla.. the whole industry is full of stories like this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xilddx Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 Look mate, this self indugence isn't going to get you anywhere. You're feeling a bit sorry for yourself because someone's decided your taste and style didn't fit their vision, and they've done it again themselves. Your pride's been hammered and the band got signed and you don't feel you're a part of it. We would all probably feel a bit pissed off and have our confidence knocked after something like that, but really, this is music, everyone feels a bit differently about things. It's clearly the guitarist's vision and it has to be how he wants it to be, otherwise HE will not be happy. He felt your parts clashed with the vocal and guitar parts. Are you sure your ego is not getting in the way here? You have to write bass lines that fit the song to the songwriter's satisfaction. Being a bassist can mean putting your ego aside for the band. Your role is supportive, most of the time. Playing bass and writing bass are very different, and it's all subjective. Your guitarist has just one opinion. Have you had good feedback from other people? Are you in other bands? I think we need some context here. I think you should go along for the ride and play the lines how the songwriter wants them to be. But that's only if you think you can be happy doing that. This is an opportunity that might lead onto other opportunities. But you need to be comfortable in your role, and the band need to be comfortable with YOU. You'll need to jettison any resentment you have or it will get messy. If your ego needs a massage, then you need to be around people who will massage it for you, but really that's not going to help you in the long run. You need confidence in your ability and musicality. You need to be valued by the band, so have a full and frank with the guitarist and see what he thinks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bremen Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 What Silddx said. If you stick with the band, put your pride aside and play supportively (read: like a bass player, not a virtuoso) you'll get a lot of respect for it. You certainly shouldn't feel like you've failed if they still want you - they still believe you can come up with the necessary, even if you didn't do it on that particular session. Insist on playing the interesting stuff and you'll be 'we had to sack him because he just wanted to show off'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charic Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 I think the problem here isn't so much what the guitarist done, instead it's the lack of communication. As to the parts, listen to the song instead of just the bass. It could well be that it DOES sound better. I've had to take a step back on a couple of my lines in realising that. It's a bit of an ego hit but it's not about my ego or anyone elses for that matter, I just want the songs to sound good. Sometimes that means not playing a fancy little run and sometimes it means playing your arse off with lines that you struggle with. I really suggest blind testing the tracks to someone that doesn't know them and ask what they think. Don't tell them to listen to the bass beforehand though. If you want to still be on the album (this would be my issue) re-record but with you playing the new parts if you agree they sound better. My guitarist suggests bass parts to me, I tweak and send them back, he listens and suggests, I listen and try etc... I then suggest slight changes to the guitar part and so on and so on. Overall, don't get down about it. Atleast there's some enthusiasm going on Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doctor J Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 Have you actually heard what he played yet? It might be worth cooling the jets and taking on board how it all sounds as a final mix, which is the important thing. What might sound ok when it's just you and the guitarist might genuinely sound too busy when there are vocals, multi tracked guitars and all the rest of the padding are added in. I'd hold fire until I had time to see if I felt they were right. By your own account, songs were changed and you didn't nail some parts. If the guy has invested a lot of his own money and he's got a producer telling him this should change and that should change and you weren't available, you might have done the same thing in his situation. Like it or not, Metal is all about all about being tight and powerful. Sometimes non-standard basslines don't work in that context. If they've changed your parts, it doesn't sound like they've done it to spite you, it sounds like time was tight and the guitarist and producer had a vision they were working towards. The whole project sounds a little underprepared going into the studio. If you hadn't heard the vocals and your experience of the music was flling space with your bass in instrumental songs, then it sounds to me like there'd be a pretty good chance than things might get in the way of each other. If it really wasn't working, would you insist the song suffers so you get to keep a more interesting bassline? I've produced demos for bands and had situations where guys were underprepared, didn't know the songs, didn't know their parts and some just couldn't play. I've never had a problem suggesting that someone else plays the right part to the requisite standard. If people are investing money into a recording then the final product needs to be as good as it can be to the end listener. Bear in mind, Pete Townshend didn't do much playing on Can't Explain. It happens. As I said, listen to the finished product and see how it sounds. It really is all about the song as a whole, not the bass, not the guitar, the song. If you still feel the music is lacking then maybe it's not the right situation for you. If it sounds right when you hear the final mix, maybe you can take it on the chin and learn from the situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdwardHimself Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Doctor J' timestamp='1338368370' post='1673253'] Have you actually heard what he played yet? It might be worth cooling the jets and taking on board how it all sounds as a final mix, which is the important thing. What might sound ok when it's just you and the guitarist might genuinely sound too busy when there are vocals, multi tracked guitars and all the rest of the padding are added in. I'd hold fire until I had time to see if I felt they were right. By your own account, songs were changed and you didn't nail some parts. If the guy has invested a lot of his own money and he's got a producer telling him this should change and that should change and you weren't available, you might have done the same thing in his situation. Like it or not, Metal is all about all about being tight and powerful. Sometimes non-standard basslines don't work in that context. If they've changed your parts, it doesn't sound like they've done it to spite you, it sounds like time was tight and the guitarist and producer had a vision they were working towards. The whole project sounds a little underprepared going into the studio. If you hadn't heard the vocals and your experience of the music was flling space with your bass in instrumental songs, then it sounds to me like there'd be a pretty good chance than things might get in the way of each other. If it really wasn't working, would you insist the song suffers so you get to keep a more interesting bassline? I've produced demos for bands and had situations where guys were underprepared, didn't know the songs, didn't know their parts and some just couldn't play. I've never had a problem suggesting that someone else plays the right part to the requisite standard. If people are investing money into a recording then the final product needs to be as good as it can be to the end listener. Bear in mind, Pete Townshend didn't do much playing on Can't Explain. It happens. As I said, listen to the finished product and see how it sounds. It really is all about the song as a whole, not the bass, not the guitar, the song. If you still feel the music is lacking then maybe it's not the right situation for you. If it sounds right when you hear the final mix, maybe you can take it on the chin and learn from the situation. [/quote] +1. Not just Pete Townsend, either. Ringo had his parts on the original album re-recorded by a session drummer because his kick drum parts were not deemed "tight" enough. I appreciate that it is a real bummer when you have to re-record parts you have spent a lot of time on (I've been there) but you have to understand that if these lot are a professional outfit, they are going to need to sound perfect, which is more important than any one person's ego. If you look at the songs I am making for example, at the moment, like your drummer, I'm using S2.0. It means that my parts aren't on any of the recordings as such, but because of my shortcomings as a drummer, I know it will sound a lot better for metal music than anything I could record at this stage. Edited May 30, 2012 by EdwardHimself Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 (edited) Just to add...the gtr might be in the driving seat atm but he will soon enter the territory of the pro gig..and everyone will be asking what is in it for them..? ie, how much.? You can put up with an awful lot of crap if it comes with a wage..esp musically, and altho he might be thinking he has moved up a notch on what HE wants, that will come at a price. If you are deemed worth it..he might pay you, just as he would anyone else. To be good enough AND free takes a exceptional set of circumstances and there must be a pay-off. He might want session players..but they will be hitting him with rates for gigs and sessions so he will have to find quite a lot of money quickly. People aren't going to do little gigs for no money for ever if that is how they earn..so they will bump these gigs for a wedding or a REAL payer or what THEY want to play. He might need to keep you sweet................. Edited May 30, 2012 by JTUK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lozz196 Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 (edited) I think I would be annoyed at this, more from the non-communication thing than anything. Plus, if the guitarist had time to re-record the basslines, why not ask the bassist to re-record them. This strikes me as someone who knows exactly what they want, but aren`t at all good at explaining it. In this situation, if I enjoyed the band/songs etc, I`d ask do they want me in the band as someone with creative input, or as someone who plays the lines they are given. Get a clear answer, and then stay either way. If I didn`t enjoy the band/songs that much, I think I`d walk, and join something that I both enjoyed more, and had a bit more input on. Edit - this also smacks of the old guitarist assumes that anyone can play bass syndrome. All the adequate guitarists I know think they can play bass (and better than any bassist). All the good guitarists I know appreciate that the bass is a different instrument, and that whilst they can play a bit, they don`t really "get" the instrument, so are wise enough to leave it to those who understand bass-playing properly. Bit like me with guitar, I can play rhythm and a fair bit of lead, but it`s all bluff. Edited May 30, 2012 by Lozz196 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowdown Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 (edited) [quote name='El Bajo' timestamp='1338365497' post='1673190'] Just play as a session musician, the guitarist is a great song writer, I can't compare, just play what he wants me to play and go along for the ride? [/quote] Playing in a studio as a session musician or freelancer will not make things any different, or indeed easier. Ego & self doubt can't get in the way, as you will still be asked to play what is required from the producer or writer. And this will be as quick as possible, be it sight reading, or using your ears, or both. Artistic input from you would be minimal and some times not at all. You will need to get a feel/groove and peoples ideas down with minimal fuss. Getting in the way of other Instruments and vocals is a naughty no no. In the studio sloppy and untidy playing is easy exposed. [Not saying you are by the way] Knowing what these people want is half the battle - they seem to explain it in the most bizarre ways. And all what JTUK has just said. Garry Edited May 30, 2012 by lowdown Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commando Jack Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 [quote name='silddx' timestamp='1338367338' post='1673223'] have a full and frank with the guitarist and see what he thinks. [/quote] This would be what I think - Have a think about what you want, and when you know what you want have a chat with the guy to see what he actually wants. If it's something that can work, then go from there. Also, this is probably still pretty raw seeing as he only got back to you last night, so a bit of time spent fully processing what happened might be worth it. Don't act out of anger or resentment, whatever you do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
51m0n Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 There's been some very goo dpoints in this thread. My 2 penneth worth:- You never really heard it all together with the vocals, it could easily be that the guitarist and producer are bang on and what you wrote without the vocals sounds great, but fights them and is detrimental to the song as a result. Its happened to me in the studio before, cool as f*** b-lines with the entire band were even better for the song when they were entirely cut out and the singing was there. You have to do the right thing for the song, put aside your ego, suck it up and be a pro about it. That is always the right thing to do - especially when its not your project, you are a sideman on bass unless you start the band I'm afraid. The producer is responsible, not the guitarist, for pointing out that stuff isnt working, if he hadn't it would be his fault that its not working. If you weren't there to fix it, who do you think will? Whoever can lay down what the song needs and is present. As for lack of cimmunication, put the boot on the other foot, someone is shelling out for expensive studio time, and needs to get this sorted asap, do they get on with sorting it out and just fix it, or do they waste time and money seeing if you can get back on board. Sorry to be harsh but I know what IO would do if it were my money being spent. Things to take away from this:- Always try and write basslines with finished vocals in place, otherwise you [i]will[/i] step on the toes of the singer, and that only ends in bass parts chaging or being muted. Thats how songwriting arranging and mixing work in the real world. Never forget that at mixtime the final arrangement is caste in stone, and if something doesnt work it gets muted. Have a listen to the bass part on Prince's "When Doves Cry" for an example of exactly that happening..... If you arent adding to the arrangement you are taking away from it - less is very very often more, and better for the song as a result. Al lthe clever licks and fancy bass parts dotn mean diddly if the track isnt pumping or doesnt feel right. Dont give up, learn from this. In the studio, if you cant lay it down completely convincingly as the bassist, it will really be obvious. If you are having trouble nailing a part you arent prepared, if you arent prepared then expec tthe part to get cut as it isnt working in the final mix. Lastly dont be so precious about it, this is really hard I know, but instead learn to be a team player for the band and more importantly the song (bands come and go recordings last for ever). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
51m0n Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 [quote name='Cameronj279' timestamp='1338371539' post='1673336'] This guitarist just sounds like a typical guitarist to me I.e. "what I write is always best and bass is unimportant". Don't let this get you down, just try and find another guitarist to start a band with, one who isn't a bit of a knob [/quote] You may have just entirely missed the point.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xilddx Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 [quote name='Cameronj279' timestamp='1338371539' post='1673336'] This guitarist just sounds like a typical guitarist to me I.e. "what I write is always best and bass is unimportant". Don't let this get you down, just try and find another guitarist to start a band with, one who isn't a bit of a knob [/quote] That's just unhelpful bollocks mate, sorry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derrenleepoole Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 Sounds like the realisation or conclusion of the project is completely different to the anticipation and expectation of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gust0o Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 [quote name='silddx' timestamp='1338372016' post='1673346'] That's just unhelpful bollocks mate, sorry. [/quote] Well, it's out of context. As in so many instances, generalisations fall at the first hurdle - [i]the guitarist is a knob[/i], being one. He might well be a knob; but it's more complicated than just that, surely? That's why I could only nail it down to happiness. If you're unhappy - with what the finished product sounds like; with the working arrangements; with whatever, then make your call. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xgsjx Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 There's been a few instances where my singer guitarist has sent me a guitar part without any lyrics or we've been in the studio with the band & played instrumental & I've written an awesome bassline, then had to completely change it as it detracted or clashed with the vocal line. Most of my basslines follow what the vocal line does (sometimes it's vice versa if the bassline is just too awesome to change). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cameronj279 Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 [quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1338371620' post='1673338'] You may have just entirely missed the point.... [/quote] [quote name='silddx' timestamp='1338372016' post='1673346'] That's just unhelpful bollocks mate, sorry. [/quote] I do that a lot, I retract my comment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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