Should the drummer keep time?

[Conan]

[quote name='Stacker' timestamp='1332944882' post='1595259']
Cue drummer joke........

How do you know when there's a drummer at your front door?

The knocking speeds up and slows down...... and speeds up!
[/quote]

And he doesn't know when to come in! Baddum-ching!

[discreet]

So anyway, a drummer gets tired of all the drummer jokes and decides to become a guitarist. So he buys some new gear. 'I'd like a Fender Stratocaster and a Marshall 50W combo, please,' he informs the shop assistant, who replies:

'You're a drummer, aren't you?'
'Er... yes, how did you know?'
'This is a shoe shop'.

* Hides in old castle from crowd of irate drummers brandishing torches and pitchforks *

Edited March 28, 2012 by discreet

[Doddy]

[quote name='SteveK' timestamp='1332944841' post='1595258']
But to be serious, even when, to all intents and purposes, there are no drums, how many times have we heard the drummer still keep a simple hats part going?
[/quote]
I believe that this is because a lot of people feel that the responsibility of time comes from the drummer,
and therefor end up all over the place if he drops out,because they aren't good time keepers themselves
and rely on someone else to do it for them.

I wonder how some people would go on if the drummer was to deliberately turn the beat around or displace
the accents? If you don't have your time solid you'll end up with a train wreck.

[cheddatom]

I demo a lot of songs on acoustic guitar, recording them on my phone or Line6 device. More often than not when I drag the files into Cubase they will synch up with a click/drum machine track and I don't have to edit, just get the tempo of the click right. Sometimes these are 2-3 minute recordings which stay in time with a click that wasn't there when I played it. Until I played the drums I thought my timing was impeccable!!

[chris_b]

The drummer is responsible for playing the drums.

Everyone in the band is responsible for playing in time and in tune.

[SteveK]

[quote name='Doddy' timestamp='1332947845' post='1595323']
I wonder how some people would go on if the drummer was to deliberately turn the beat around or displace
the accents? If you don't have your time solid you'll end up with a train wreck.
[/quote]I don't think many of us are exempt from a possible train wreck...if a drummer wants to catch you out, he will...eventually!
Thankfully, in my case, those kind of shenanigans are just a bit of fun to be enjoyed only at sound-check. Keeps us on our toes.

[JTUK]

Should the drummer keep time..? absolutely, as most of the time he is best place to do this.
That is not to say it is his and his alone, responsibility, but he has to drive and he has to take a lead.
A drummer who sits back and follows is not a whole lot of good to anyone.

The time, temp and groove should start with the drums. If they haven't got that, you can't really rescue the song, IMO.

If I had many gigs where I was bailing out the drums, then that gig wouldn't last long.
I had a recent nightmare where I had to be the bass and the drums... and that was a mess I would not want to repeat.
Ok, it was for a mate as a throw-together-favour, but even so...!!

Edited March 28, 2012 by JTUK

[Lozz196]

[quote name='icastle' timestamp='1332937650' post='1595085']
I have a very simplistic approach to it.
The drummer is there to keep time, the band is there to play the tune.

My job is to keep the band glued to the drummer - If there was such a thing as a UN Timekeeping Force then that'd be me.
[/quote]

My view as well.

[EdwardHimself]

Of course the drummer is the main timekeeper of the band, but IMO it is also up to the rest of the band to make sure they play in time with the drummer.

[garethfriend]

having just let our drummer set the tempo of the click track for our last recording session I'm inclined to think they should keep time but not set tempo, whole thing was waaaaaaaay to slow when we went to track the other instruments. The front man doing the "1 2 3 4" thing is perfectly legit I think.

[deepbass5]

I'm with Bilbo and Doddy. But understand those countering their point, but if a drummer is that bad you won't be playing with him long. In our Functions band our drummer is like a recording and I have no issues, in the Swing band I play in the drummer sometimes speeds up, but different sections pull the rhythm section all the time, trumpets speed up, sax entries slow the piece down. And I believe they should follow the drummer regardless, as I have said on other threads If you have a rhythm section that’s what it is for, follow it and the band will sound good, fight it and the audience will notice as well.
As most here on B.C. I would guess play in just rhythm sections 4 -5 piece bands it must be a collective responsibility, but helps if you can find the best drummer in town.

[thepurpleblob]

The bass player is there to make the guitarist sound good and the drummer is there to make the bass player sound good. The drummer has to provide a rock solid foundation that you can rely on. That's both keeping time and a certain undefinable air of confidence.

Something like that!

[essexbasscat]

Largely agree with Bilbo and a few others here.

Classical composers and conductors treat musical tempo is a flexible entity, as have some rock bands. For instance, 'WInd Cries Mary' by Hendrix occasionally stumbles along, but the whole band stumbles together, so the fluctuating tempo evolves into something many of call 'feeling the beat' or the song.

Other songs almost make a feature of a granite solid tempo, such as Toto playing Rosanna.

I've noticed the problems tend to emerge when members of the ensemble don't play together, be it one person or many. Then the topic of tempo tends to come to the fore.

If I find myself in a situation of disorganised, unintentional, erratic, fluctuating tempo, I tend to set my tempo and stick to it unless there is a collective agreement to purposefully alter it. In these circumstances, the people with erratic tempo soon become quite conspicuous and often uncomfortable, which often prompts them to shape up.

[Toddy]

Nah,, the drummer shouldn't keep time,,, the SPDS machine keeps the time and sends the click to the drum stool....

[TimR]

It's not cut and dried. Every situation is different. I played with a drummer for too long who wanted to play everything too fast.

As a bass player it is very easy to hold the tempo back or push it forward but it gets very tiring doing it song after song, gig after gig.

We used to have a nightmare getting the feel of Crazy Little Thing Called Love. There are things going on in that tune that are not immediately obvious. Mainly the drums really push and drive but the vocals are really laid back. If the drummer plays with a laid back swing feel you can't do anthing about it.

Essentially in tunes where the bass and drums are on the beat together it's a partnership and bass can control the time effectively. In tunes where the bass is laid back, the drums have to keep time and push ahead. In tunes where the bass is pushing it is the bass keeping time and the drums sit back on the bass.

Most drummers only understand playing on the beat like a metronome. If you find one who can play with feel and can push without speeding up then keep hold of them.

Edited March 28, 2012 by TimR

[uncle psychosis]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1332949726' post='1595386']
The drummer is responsible for playing the drums.

Everyone in the band is responsible for playing in time and in tune.
[/quote]

^^^ This.

Because of the nature of the instrument the drummer is really important when it comes to keeping time but its not *only* his responsibility. I've seen too many bands who change tempo willy-nilly and try to blame the drummer when its actually all of them at fault and the drummer has been forced to "go with it".

[JakeBrownBass]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1332940583' post='1595169']
Depends entirely on the type of music and the instrumentation. And also don't forget that there are songs that are supposed to change tempo.
[/quote]

There is a MASSIVE difference in keeping time & changing tempo.

[icastle]

[quote name='Valhalalf' timestamp='1332940747' post='1595174']
I'm sorry but that quote just has to go in my sig.
[/quote]

Fame and fortune at last!

[Mog]

Yes, but no more so than the rest of the group. Everyone should know what the timing of the song is. Its often left to the drummer to do it so everyone else doesnt have to work as hard on getting things right. Of course the better drummers can easily switch between tempos and make it sound like they've messed up the timing but usually if its properly analysed that misunderstanding dosent pop up.

[cheddatom]

I had another practice with the reggae/hip hop/whatever band last night. I think I might be thinking about it too much. When i'm thinking about tempo, I tend to hold back, and in the end i'm slowing down. When I forget about it and just play, it stays at a constant tempo. ARRGH!!!

[Mog]

[quote name='cheddatom' timestamp='1333027991' post='1596388']
I had another practice with the reggae/hip hop/whatever band last night. I think I might be thinking about it too much. When i'm thinking about tempo, I tend to hold back, and in the end i'm slowing down. When I forget about it and just play, it stays at a constant tempo. ARRGH!!!
[/quote]

I think thats something that happens to us all lad.

[flyfisher]

[quote name='icastle' timestamp='1332937650' post='1595085']
I have a very simplistic approach to it.
The drummer is there to keep time, the band is there to play the tune.

My job is to keep the band glued to the drummer - If there was such a thing as a UN Timekeeping Force then that'd be me.
[/quote]

Where's that 'like' button when you need it . . . . ?

[icastle]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1333031034' post='1596472']
Where's that 'like' button when you need it . . . . ?
[/quote]

You can do it via BACS...

[4 Strings]

This is all a little odd as the (kind of) general consensus appears to be that its the responsibility of the whole band, not the drummer, to keep time and so will be in agreement with the Bill Bruford view. Not the response I expected.

For jazzers, I can see this. My sax player (thoroughly jazz, all other music is worthlessly shallow - but much better paid hence his compromise) talks about the pocket of the beat, where the bass may be slightly ahead of the drummer (or vice versa) leaving a pocket which allows variance for the other instruments to be flexible and interpret.

In pop/rock/funk etc, which has been my own experience, precise synchronisation between bass and drums has been the sign of a good rhythm section. I'm always watching and listening to the drummer (focussing on the movement of the kick drum skin or pedal if I can't hear things properly) to be accurate with him, even if he's varying from a rigid tempo. If this isn't tight together it sounds sloppy.

I can do this but, frankly, I'm not good enough to intentionally create a 'pocket' for more than a couple of bars.

I have been playing with a conductor in an orchestra that includes a drumkit. Perhaps its lazy but while the conductor has been the prime focus for tempo its been the drummer I've been co-ordinating with to get that tight sound and so relying on him t be watching the conductor, me only paying attention for rits etc. Test recordings show the string section to be consistently slightly behind the beat giving a rather relaxing, lolloping(?) effect the conductor liked.

Where should I play? So much to learn.

[JTUK]

Leave the time to the drummer... if he has it wrong he needs a click to set it. This isn't a bad set-up anyway so it he wants to
continue using the click all through the song, this is VERY good, IMO.
If he can't keep good time and can't sit on it, then there are quite a few tracks that just will not work.
This is a problem with so many bands, it is a crazy situation.

I'd suggest 9 out of 10 bands are completely unaware of this. There must be so many bad drummers about that either can't sit or play in time.
Don't even start with the drummer moving his foot all over the place..