The Amp size vs Venue size argument

[TomTFS]

People always seem to say that your amp size should be proportional to the venue size.
So big venue->big amp and Small venue->small amp.

I've never understood this, as it is in fact the opposite way round. In a small venue your rig is most likely going to be either only DI'd (no mic) or not even that. In which case, your amp has to fill the entire room.
Whereas in a big venue, the amp will be DI'd and Mic'd (maybe even more!), and you have loads of PA for the punters to hear you, plus decent monitors to hear yourself. Not to mention that, but the quieter you are on stage, the easier the FOH engineers job is, and the easier the monitor engineer's job is (albeit he might have to do a bit more work putting your bass in monitors etc, but then he has less work to do trying to get the lead vocal to cut over the sound of your backline.)


This of course has no bearing on bands that intentionally want to sound noisy or dirty, who just need big loud amps all the time.

[Mr. Foxen]

Clean needs big amps. Dirty needs small ones.

I've never found a venue I couldn't fit my amps in.

Mostly it isn't down to size, it is down to how good the PA and engineer are, and the two are never related to size of venue.

[Lozz196]

I think with gear the way it is now, huge stacks are not needed, but they are still the preference of many. Personally, I like the "feel" of multiple speakers - not however, turning them all up to 10, I might add. Just the depth of sound that you get from a stack. My Barefaced stack does a great job at this, and it is relatively small.

That said, every time I go to a pub gig and love the sound of the bass, it is almost always coming from a little Markbass combo in the corner, filling out the whole pub on it`s own.

Don`t know how said combo would deal with some of the bands that I`ve played in though - the type where the guitars just [u]have[/u] to turn up as loud as they can (luckily I`ve escaped all that now).

[Delberthot]

Absolutely right. If you're playing a small gig it will normally only have a vocal PA and a large one ill have a full PA.

I use the same gear regardless of venue and its never let me down, its just not trendy.

[warwickhunt]

I'm always amazed that folks forget that big amps with many watts can play quietly; they have this 'magic' control normally found on the far right of the amp... shame our guitarist doesn't understand this!

I used to gig with a pre/power set-up and the power amp was something like 1200-2000watts and I used to get loads of comments about overkill but then I had an amp that was barely ticking over and I didn't need to panic when I turned up to find a venue was a bit bigger than anticipated and/or PA support wasn't adequate (so long as you have decent cabs that aren't pathetically inadequate despite their reported ratings).

[gafbass02]

[quote name='TomTFS' post='1349790' date='Aug 24 2011, 12:58 AM']People always seem to say that your amp size should be proportional to the venue size.
So big venue->big amp and Small venue->small amp.

I've never understood this, as it is in fact the opposite way round. In a small venue your rig is most likely going to be either only DI'd (no mic) or not even that. In which case, your amp has to fill the entire room.
Whereas in a big venue, the amp will be DI'd and Mic'd (maybe even more!), and you have loads of PA for the punters to hear you, plus decent monitors to hear yourself. Not to mention that, but the quieter you are on stage, the easier the FOH engineers job is, and the easier the monitor engineer's job is (albeit he might have to do a bit more work putting your bass in monitors etc, but then he has less work to do trying to get the lead vocal to cut over the sound of your backline.)


This of course has no bearing on bands that intentionally want to sound noisy or dirty, who just need big loud amps all the time. [/quote]

I have very much found this to be the case. At the bigger venues I've played (very, very big) my amp has done very little simply due to the quality of the monitoring. I could pretty much have switched it off. (This was when I ran a full trace Elliot old school stack) But when I've had to try and fill a venue from backline alone over two guitars and drums and keys and maintain a quality bass sound things have soon ended up with the volume cranked and eq compromised to accommodate volume. Playing the SECC is much kinder to your cabs than the dog 'n gun
ime

[gafbass02]

Or should I say 'playing too loud in the dog 'n gun'

[xgsjx]

[quote name='Delberthot' post='1349895' date='Aug 24 2011, 08:54 AM']Absolutely right. If you're playing a small gig it will normally only have a vocal PA and a large one ill have a full PA.

I use the same gear regardless of venue and its never let me down, its just not trendy.[/quote]
Same here. Most of our gigs have a PA (usually our own & without any subs) for the band which I'll DI from my amp into, but I tend to roll off most of the bass & let my gear do the work.

[sk8]

I take a 412 and 200 watt tube head to the pub gigs and my prometheon combo to the PA supported gigs

[janmaat]

In non-PA venues you obviously need something that works with your setup, so your drummer and guitarist and audience and all can hear you - the bigger the better.

In crap-PA venues you need something large enough to make your drummer hear / feel you. Many crap PA venues who DI the bass have no speakers appropriate for low freqs so it's nice to be able to provide that; means you are basically in the same situation as above. I have frequently played in venues that size, and even though the bass goes through PA you can hardly ever "feel" it anywhere in the venue, so I wish they had an insight and would get a 8x10 instead of the 1x15 most such venues provide.

In good-PA venues you only need a DI box, and maybe a tiny amp as extra stage monitor.

I find it surprising that people seem to thing the bass amp should "fit" with the size of guitar amps. It is the loudest non-amplified instrument that sets the levels, and in rock setups that's usually the drum kit. Depending on how loud your drummer and his kit is, you should be able to create nice solid balanced rhythm section. - A "good PA venue" mic's all the drums.

[AsterL]

I totally agree. If it wasn't for all the small gigs, i'd go completely di.
What do you think is a good standard of rig to cover both?
I think 210 is to small for the bigger gigs, 610 might be to cumbersome and larger for the smaller pub gigs.
410 is goldielocks :-)

[warwickhunt]

[quote name='AsterL' post='1349933' date='Aug 24 2011, 09:26 AM']I totally agree. If it wasn't for all the small gigs, i'd go completely di.
What do you think is a good standard of rig to cover both?
I think 210 is to small for the bigger gigs, 610 might be to cumbersome and larger for the smaller pub gigs.
410 is goldielocks :-)[/quote]
Big can of worms there as I'd have said a pair of stacked 1x12s for portability or a vertical 2x12 if you want a one cab solution... but there will be a whole heap of other ideas that are equally valid!

[molan]

Saw a band recently in a fairly small venue where the bass player ran an Ashdown 500W head through a pair of 4x10's stacked vertically.

Band starts playing = cue thud, thud, thud, boom, boom, boom from the bass corner

[janmaat]

It really depends on how loud everyone else is.

I am very happy with my 2x6 Minimark since it weighs only 10kg and that's the same as the bass in my other hand - plus, it has a DI out.

But I would be more happy with a 4x10 + head which indeed seems to cover most situations, but I'd need a car which I don't have.

[xgsjx]

So far I've found that my 2x10 covers everything that I've needed it to & bigger venues do have decent PA, so it get's used as a monitor.

[BigRedX]

How important your bass amp and speakers are on stage is down to the quality of the PA and foldback not the size.

IME unless the foldback includes side fills and/or multichannel monitor mixes sticking the bass through the foldback just makes life harder for the singer.

Better to have a loud powerful rig and not always need to turn it up than have to rely on external gear to be heard.

[DaveB]

[quote name='warwickhunt' post='1349897' date='Aug 24 2011, 08:56 AM']I'm always amazed that folks forget that big amps with many watts can play quietly; they have this 'magic' control normally found on the far right of the amp... shame our guitarist doesn't understand this! [/quote]

very true but the only thing I would say in their defence is that I know my Mesa guitar amp sounds better when driven.

To the topic, I run my Markbass tube800 head with a single 4x10 cab (which is small), so it's maxing at 500watts and this is more loud enough, if it needs to be louder it's D.I'd so no I don't see the point in massive rigs.

[burno70]

Thats precisely why I've ordered a Barefaced Super 12T - should be great in both circumstances.

I really couldn't chance turning up to a big venue with just a DI - just incase the sound engineer is crap or the monitors are crap - I'd hate to not hear myself play. At least your rig, whatever the size, can be used as a monitor.

[Dad3353]

In ideal circumstances, I would agree that the material used has little to do with venue size. Many bands/groups play at whatever volume their style and tastes dictate, and rehearse that way (mostly, but not always, because that's what they like...). The initial purpose of a PA is to capture what the band is doing on stage and take it to whatever size of audience. FOH for big halls, multiple line arrays for stadiums or festivals, even broadcasting to the nation through the airwaves. The band should not be concerned by this, except for the monitor requirements differing from their rehearsing environment.
In the 'real' world, the PA (and more importantly, the technicians...) may not be able to fulfill all the requirements. The smaller (or less prestigious...) the event, the more the material will be important in determining satisfaction, both for the spectators and musicians. In practice, those used to playing in varying conditions would be best served having a flexible rig, scaleable to accomodate their venues, and knowing how/what to adapt.

[Lozz196]

[quote name='janmaat' post='1349925' date='Aug 24 2011, 09:18 AM']In non-PA venues you obviously need something that works with your setup, so your drummer and guitarist and audience and all can hear you - the bigger the better.

In crap-PA venues you need something large enough to make your drummer hear / feel you. Many crap PA venues who DI the bass have no speakers appropriate for low freqs so it's nice to be able to provide that; means you are basically in the same situation as above. I have frequently played in venues that size, and even though the bass goes through PA you can hardly ever "feel" it anywhere in the venue, so I wish they had an insight and would get a 8x10 instead of the 1x15 most such venues provide.

In good-PA venues you only need a DI box, and maybe a tiny amp as extra stage monitor.

I find it surprising that people seem to thing the bass amp should "fit" with the size of guitar amps. It is the loudest non-amplified instrument that sets the levels, and in rock setups that's usually the drum kit. Depending on how loud your drummer and his kit is, you should be able to create nice solid balanced rhythm section. - A "good PA venue" mic's all the drums.[/quote]

+1 to the point about setting your volume to the drums. Most common-sense way, especially in venues where there is no FOH PA.

Downside to this, is there are some incredibly loud drummers about. I`ve played with a couple, never noticed it at the time how loud they were, but have since been to see bands which they are in, and the whole bands have been sooooo loud, just to keep up with the drummer, that you really can`t tell what`s being played or sung.

Really respect drummers that can play fast, but still keep the volume down. Worth their weight in gold.

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='molan' post='1349958' date='Aug 24 2011, 09:46 AM']Saw a band recently in a fairly small venue where the bass player ran an Ashdown 500W head through a pair of 4x10's stacked vertically.

Band starts playing = cue thud, thud, thud, boom, boom, boom from the bass corner [/quote]

Isn't that what Ashdowns sound like anyway?

[TomTFS]

[quote name='EBS_freak' post='1350229' date='Aug 24 2011, 01:36 PM']Isn't that what Ashdowns sound like anyway?[/quote]

Hahah, yea pretty much. Always used to have to have the 180hz slider almost all the way out to make it remotely clear sounding.

[lojo]

In my experience , yes, the sound guys will sort you out on stage and out front (either to your liking or not), your own cabs may or may not make a difference to the band mix you hear

Small venues, even if you can trickle some into a PA, unless its decent, will get you some volume, but not the punch near the band that I like, and the party goes deserve to feel in the mix

Id love to do the DI box only thing, but I need to cover all basses, as I do a mix of venues, and standards of PA

I guess thats the way for the weekend bassist

[Dave Vader]

[quote name='DaveB' post='1350107' date='Aug 24 2011, 11:50 AM']very true but the only thing I would say in their defence is that I know my Mesa guitar amp sounds better when driven.[/quote]

Which is why my guitar rig is an old 15w Vox V15 which I can drive the bejesus out of without deafening people, and stick a mike in front of it at big venues.

As opposed to the guitarist in my 80s tribute band, who runs a 100w Diesel into a Marshall 4 x 12. He doesn't like it when I make him turn it down, but he wants to be in the PA, so he has to ****ing turn that amp down and stop deafening us, or listen to my suggestion of smaller backline in smaller venues (which is right for guitars that need driving, and not for clean bassy noises).

[Commando Jack]

[quote name='Dave Vader' post='1350438' date='Aug 24 2011, 04:42 PM']Which is why my guitar rig is an old 15w Vox V15 which I can drive the bejesus out of without deafening people, and stick a mike in front of it at big venues.

As opposed to the guitarist in my 80s tribute band, who runs a 100w Diesel into a Marshall 4 x 12. He doesn't like it when I make him turn it down, but he wants to be in the PA, so he has to ****ing turn that amp down and stop deafening us, or listen to my suggestion of smaller backline in smaller venues (which is right for guitars that need driving, and not for clean bassy noises).[/quote]

Agreed, tube guitar amps are a whole different kettle of fish. Cranked amps start to push the output valves and transformer to give very fat sounding harmonic distortion that (IME) can't be replicated by just overdriving the preamp valves. There are a raft of 1 -15W guitar amps on the market aimed at the studio market - i.e. amps where you can hit the sweet spot without deafening anyone. Why anyone carries a 100W rig anywhere but a stadium is beyond me.