JTUK Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 [quote name='Bilbo' post='1277301' date='Jun 21 2011, 04:50 PM']OK, I've got the a*** I keep hearing the term 'self indulgence' used whenever there is any suggestion that a musician is moving away from the groove and into the area of soloing or collective improvisation. I have heard this term since the heady days of punk when the bands I liked (Yes, Genesis etc) were dismissed by the monkey-booted, donkey-jacket wearing Philistines that surrounded me as irrelevant because of their 'self indulgence'. Well, I am sorry, but I and many of my colleagues LIKE this stuff so, by definition, we represent an audience which means that, by definition, there is an entertainment element to this stuff. More to the point, I can't think of anything more self indulgent that singers telling me they are hurting because their girlfriend left them or how they are gonna rrrrrrrock - its a bit like those drunks you get at parties that bore you senseless with their adolescent meandering and who you only walk home with because you fear that they may collapse in the gutter and choke to death on their own vomit. An improvising player who is constantly searching within his playing or composition for new ideas and new sounds is, for me, something to be admired, feted and celebrated. I can't see that a soloist in any contemporary setting is any more self indulgent that Paganini or Yo Yo Ma, excellent musicians who are masters of their instruments. A musician who can take you somewhere emotionally without having to tell you in monosyllabic terms where they are going is a lot more interesting than the 'painting by numbers' drivel of most pop and rock music. Watching 20 somethings playing the only three chords they know whilst they strike a pose identical to the one struck by the last 20 year old and the one before that whilst having a crowd of thousands 'saluting' them with fists in the air, waving cigarette lighters or swaying Arsenal scarves? Now THAT is self indulgent![/quote] Entirely right.... the whole effort is self-indulgent..including this stuff from whacked out jazzers ... but less hysterical than preening posers..rock gods, 80's shredders, or shreeders in general and all the other crap...to long to be listed JFDI..!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megallica Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 I think there's elements of self-indulgence in most genres of music, whether it's blues/rock/metal guitarists playing extended guitar solos or jazzers playing extended solo breaks. Although most people tend to think of the Pistols/Damned/Exploited etc when they think of punk, there are a lot of accomplished bass players in punk bands too (Matt Freeman, Fat Mike and Jay Bentley are worth checking out). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mykesbass Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 OK, slight honing of my original ramblings, and yes Beedster, you are absolutely right, so by my taste, indulgence begins when what I percieve to be competition enter music - louder, faster, more complex (or less if a blues guitarist or harpist thinks it is cool to play a one note 12 bar solo). And as for the Wooten/James Taylor post, I'd personally remove the "self" bit and just keep it as indulgence. Good thread, nice healthy, proper debate! [quote name='Beedster' post='1277395' date='Jun 21 2011, 05:43 PM']One man's self-indulgence is another man's virtuosity. It's about taste, and people have different tastes; no amount of ranting about it eloquently or otherwise will change those tastes substantially. Trying to resolve this one way or another is like trying to get toothpaste back in the tube. Personally I think the OP was self-indulgent, but I'm sure others disagree. Shall we open a new thread to discuss [/quote] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bassace Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 Rattling Bilbo's cage puts me in mind of someone going into a bear's cave, banging a drum and saying 'How's the hibernation going then?' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Low End Bee Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 This thread isn't half going on a bit.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowdown Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 (edited) [quote name='jakesbass' post='1277982' date='Jun 22 2011, 12:13 AM']are you referring to *ahem* teenage exercise?[/quote] [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajzp4oWTb4c"]Teenage exercise tuition[/url] Garry Edited June 22, 2011 by lowdown Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Vader Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 I suspect that if there were no self-indulgence in music, there would be no musical progression, possibly no music at all. Certainly if it had stopped in recent years, we would probably all be playing knees up muvva brahn on a constant loop so that everyone was happy and heard something they knew and could sing along to. I like all music equally ta, there's some songs I don't like, a lot of artists I don't care for, but not s single genre I thoroughly hate (unless Abba count as a genre? And I like that bit out of SOS anyway... Nice thread... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cytania Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 There's a dichotomy in music between the short punchy dance and the long blissful melody. In the 50s jazz split into the Trad and Bebop camps, there was even a fight at Beaulieu over it. So the prog/punk thing isn't new. Prog itself was a retrenchment of psychedelia (many psych bands morphed into prog outfits) and the psychedelic breakout was about bringing jazz forms into the rock format. Truth is bands can take their audience on a journey, a storming starter, a mid-tempo piece, a slower melodic workout and then back to a fast pace etc. Punk bands deprived themselves of the change of pace, that's all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wateroftyne Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 IMO, any music played to a captive or semi-captive audience who don't really want to hear it can be considered self-indulgent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakenewmanbass Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 My stock response when people ask what I like is... 'Good music' beyond that labels matter not (and it's me that gets to decide) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Linus27 Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 [quote name='Jean-Luc Pickguard' post='1277381' date='Jun 21 2011, 05:31 PM']Yeah I agree. All musicians are tossers. The only 'pure' form of entertainment is Karaoke. [/quote] Don't you mean, Yeah I agree. All musicians are tossers. The only 'pure' form of entertainment is a tribute band Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beedster Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 (edited) [quote name='megallica' post='1278135' date='Jun 22 2011, 08:58 AM']Although most people tend to think of the Pistols/Damned/Exploited etc when they think of punk, there are a lot of accomplished bass players in punk bands too (Matt Freeman, Fat Mike and Jay Bentley are worth checking out).[/quote] +1. The whole UK 'punk' thing was marketed by a few individuals and focused the media on The Pistols, Damned, Buzzcocks and Clash (I say UK 'cos there were at least two US punk movements, one in the late 60's which was the root of the UK movement, and one in the mid '80s that was itself the result of the UK movement). It excluded for certain inter-personal, pseudo-political and financial reasons - but not really for any clear musical reasons - The Jam, Stranglers, etc. If we forget the all too often abused distinctions between punk and new wave - which distinctions weren't clearly made at the time - and which labels often appear to have been bestowed on bands after the fact, perhaps in recognition of whether they imploded in chaos or survived and developed as musicians, there were some great 'punk' musicians, some great 'punk' sounds (e.g., JJB's Barracuda bass against the Strangler's Baroque keyboard parts, the Clash's synthesis of punk and reggae) and some great 'punk' songs (White Man in Hammersmith Palais still has a very powerful effect on me over 30 years on). There was also some appalling musical self-indulgence as defined in several posts above, best epitomised by The Pistols GRRS, by which time they had nothing left to give and were being kept alive to make money. But I guess that's often why musicians appear to be self-indulgent, they've run out of ideas, but performing is their - or their manager's, agent's, & label's - living. What would we do in the same situation, carry on playing self-indulgent music or get a job in Tesco? And after all, as the buying public no-one [i]makes[/i] us listen to it. Edited June 22, 2011 by Beedster Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Linus27 Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 [quote name='Marvin' post='1277417' date='Jun 21 2011, 06:00 PM']This thread has baffled me, I can't work out what on earth is going on.[/quote] I'm with you on this Marvin. To me its all music. You either like it or you don't Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowdown Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 [quote name='Low End Bee' post='1278162' date='Jun 22 2011, 09:34 AM']This thread isn't half going on a bit....[/quote] Six pages and counting [and no hint of thread closure] - big proof that self indulgence is not a Myth. Garry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Linus27 Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 [quote name='Beedster' post='1277957' date='Jun 21 2011, 11:50 PM']No, I'm one also, and there's many more. Most just wisely avoid these threads [/quote] No, I am one also. I think the only genre I have never enjoyed is blues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlackAlice Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 [quote name='Linus27' post='1278209' date='Jun 22 2011, 10:09 AM']I'm with you on this Marvin. To me its all music. You either like it or you don't [/quote] Amen to that! Angie (a woman of few words................) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beedster Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 [quote name='Linus27' post='1278227' date='Jun 22 2011, 10:21 AM']No, I am one also. I think the only genre I have never enjoyed is blues.[/quote] All those self-indulgent guitar solos Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blademan_98 Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 [quote name='silddx' post='1277450' date='Jun 21 2011, 06:19 PM']I'm not sure I understand the point either! I understand that the more complex the music becomes and the more jazz and classically influenced, the more money, intellect and power the performers are believed to have by the angry punks and layabouts who like three out-of-tune chords and 'the truth', and it breeds grave resentment among the uncultured. [/quote] I was enjoying this thread, but as a fretless bass player, I really like the out of tune chords....... They match my style Oh and yes, I am a layabout at present due to the lack of employment Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Earbrass Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 (edited) Look, if I don't indulge myself, who will? Answer me that. [quote name='SteveK' post='1277726' date='Jun 21 2011, 08:50 PM']I don't have a problem condemning punk and don't think it's too difficult to define...certainly, in the context of this discussion.[/quote] PUNK = Music made by people who can't play for people who can't tell. Edited June 22, 2011 by Earbrass Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldslapper Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 [quote name='Linus27' post='1278209' date='Jun 22 2011, 10:09 AM']To me its all music. You either like it or you don't [/quote] We'll have none of your simple reasoning here matey! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Linus27 Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 [quote name='oldslapper' post='1278350' date='Jun 22 2011, 11:42 AM'] We'll have none of your simple reasoning here matey![/quote] I like simple song for simple folk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmccombe7 Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 (edited) [quote name='stingrayPete1977' post='1277935' date='Jun 21 2011, 11:34 PM']What's a chord? Is that when you play with more than one finger or venture off the E string? Nuts![/quote] You have more than one string and you've given it a name Dave Edited June 22, 2011 by dmccombe7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wateroftyne Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 [quote name='dmccombe7' post='1278495' date='Jun 22 2011, 01:34 PM']You have more than one string and you've given it a name Dave [/quote] Can you imagine? Bloody Jazzers! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmccombe7 Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 (edited) My musical tastes have changed over the years and include anything i like. From Beatles when i was 3 to now where i have albums from all styles of music incl, Rock, Punk, Prog, Blues, Jazz / Jazz-Rock, Metal, Pop / Chart hits, (Country - although that's a bit of a limited collection - honest !) and incl ABBA (well some of it anyways). I don't care if its popular or not. I've always enjoyed competent players. I can't fault a musician because he's better than me and can play things I've only dreamed off. I simply admire someone who can play well. Doesn't have to be 100 notes a minute - just nice technique will do i.e. John Giblin. I don't think Indulgence or self indulgence is even a factor. If its good - I'll like it. Dave Edited June 22, 2011 by dmccombe7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urb Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 I just heard this joke today - I'm sure it's a bzilion years old: What's the difference between a blues musician and a jazz musician? A blues musician plays three chords to an audience of thousands - and a jazz musician plays thousands of chords to an audience of three... (and before anyone else posts it - yes a pizza can feed a family of four... a jazz musician might not be able to do that.. ) Self-indulgence is (as with most other taste related topics) in the eye/ear of the beholder - I'm not a fan of most out and out shredding but once in a while it's great - it all depends on the context of the music, the era it was made in, who's playing it - I think the Wooten solo is cool that was posted earlier - he's doing that to 10,000+ folks in a stadium - a little more than your average jazzer me thinks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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