Chris Squire - Would he have been better as a reader?

[xilddx]

Chris Squire, one of the most revered bassists in rock music history. He has very little knowledge of music theory and as far as I know doesn't read music notation.

My question is, would his bass lines have been any more interesting, thrilling, suitable for the songs, or more accomplished, if he had been able to read music and had a good grasp of music theory?

This is prompted by the age old rebuttal "Yes, but look how good you COULD have been, if you had learned to ... ".

[Doddy]

He'd probably have played just . the same to be honest. He certainly wouldn't be any worse.

.....And I still probably wouldn't have particularly liked him much.

[stingrayPete1977]

This thread is doomed before it has started, I thought it was only meant to come up every 4 months?

[Marvin]

Well if he'd learnt a bit more theory perhaps he'd have played more than just root notes.

Hold on. No I was thinking of Mike Drint who's got that Squire sig bass thingy. Sorry. Carry on.

[skankdelvar]

But just imagine if Squire's career falters and he has to take dep gigs. Say, with a Barbadian steel band or a Ragtime combo. Without the dots, that would be him finished.

So, on balance, if he really wants to get on in this business and be taken seriously, he should learn to read before it's too late.

Edited November 4, 2010 by skankdelvar

[Marvin]

[quote name='skankdelvar' post='1012396' date='Nov 4 2010, 06:31 PM']But just imagine if Squire's career falters and he has to take dep gigs. Say, with a Barbadian steel band or a Ragtime combo. Without the dots, that would be him finished.

So, on balance, if he really wants to get on in this business and be taken seriously, he should learn to read before it's too late.[/quote]

Quite. Just imagine how foolish he'd look. Heaven forbid if he turned up and a band had a trumpet player.

[RhysP]

I'm pretty sure he can read music & has some knowledge of theory - as a child he was a chorister at St. Andrews church in Wembley (which at the time Squire was a member was regarded as the best choir in Britain) & would have been required to sight read for this.

Edited November 4, 2010 by RhysP

[Low End Bee]

I heard he lost out on a cruise ship gig to Flea.

[Clarky]

If he could read, Chris Squier surely wouldn't have mis-spelled his surname

[paul h]

I prefer Chris MIM Fender.

[thisnameistaken]

He probably wouldn't have ended up in Yes, so more people would've enjoyed his music.

Unless he'd ended up in Rush or Genesis or something. That would've been tragic.

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='RhysP' post='1012405' date='Nov 4 2010, 06:43 PM']I'm pretty sure he can read music & has some knowledge of theory - as a child he was a chorister at St. Andrews church in Wembley (which at the time Squire was a member was regarded as the best choir in Britain) & would have been required to sight read for this.[/quote]
I've no idea how much Squire can read but the point made above seems to me likely - even if he hasn't been practicing his reading skills regularly since then.

For what it's worth, Bass Player magazine called Squire 'a serious student of harmony' and when they asked who were his biggest harmonic influences he said: 'I got a big education from my years in church choir, which had a really good choirmaster. He taught us a lot about the relationship between vocal lines and bass lines in a choir setting, and I think I adapted a lot of that knowledge into playing bass and singing. I’ve always been very aware of the relationship between the bass and the top melody line.' ([url="http://www.bassplayer.com/article/basso-cantantecontinuo-chris/jan-09/91289"]Source[/url])

I can't say I'm particularly a fan of Yes or Squire, although I wouldn't doubt his abilities.

[gelfin]

[quote name='silddx' post='1012385' date='Nov 4 2010, 06:18 PM']Chris Squire, one of the most revered bassists in rock music history. He has very little knowledge of music theory and as far as I know doesn't read music notation.

My question is, would his bass lines have been any more interesting, thrilling, suitable for the songs, or more accomplished, if he had been able to read music and had a good grasp of music theory?

This is prompted by the age old rebuttal "Yes, but look how good you COULD have been, if you had learned to ... ".[/quote]
Why would being able to read notation make a difference when you are creating the basslines. It matters not to me that Chris may or may not read or have knowledge of musical theory. Where do you get your information from? I have had great pleasure for many years listening to YES music, recorded and live. In particular Chris's playing. Even before I took up playing. He may have been my inspiration.
Theory and musical knowledge are all very well but feeling has a lot to do with it as well. I'll stop now and get off my soapbox. Long live YES.

[risingson]

Hypothetical questions. Who'll ever know?

[chaypup]

Apparentley "The Fish" doesn't even realise he's playing a musical instrument, he just likes hitting the big wood thing he found.

[EssentialTension]

[chris_b]

I think John Lennon and Bob Dylan were definitely held back by their lack of knowledge of music theory.

[Chris2112]

[quote name='EssentialTension' post='1012755' date='Nov 4 2010, 11:41 PM'][/quote]


I've never thought much of Squire, but I suppose a lot of that is to do with me thinking that YES are a load of crap. Who knows, maybe if he had read music YES would have been susbstantially different and I would have liked them? We will never know.

What I do know though, is that the guy interviewing Chris in the video looks and sounds like a total idiot.

[DanOwens]

Reading and theory knowledge mean you don't have to do too much on-the-spot problem solving (ie: you know that E is the third of C major and don't have to trial-and-error Eb, listen and decide).

But theory or no theory, you've still got to listen. That's what Dylan, Lennon, Squire and the rest of the non-studied universe do: listen and make critical decisions. Also, studiers and non-studiers alike sometimes do not listen and that is generally just rubbish musicianship whether or not you've studied.

Dan

[SS73]

[quote name='EssentialTension' post='1012755' date='Nov 4 2010, 11:41 PM'][/quote]

Nail, Head, Hit, .

That's one high action on another note, fret buzz is certainly not part of his sound.

[Earbrass]

[quote name='silddx' post='1012385' date='Nov 4 2010, 06:18 PM']Chris Squire, one of the most revered bassists in rock music history. He has very little knowledge of music theory and as far as I know doesn't read music notation.

My question is, would his bass lines have been any more interesting, thrilling, suitable for the songs, or more accomplished, if he had been able to read music and had a good grasp of music theory?[/quote]

Let's look at it another way:

Ludwig van Beethoven, one of the most revered composers in music history. He had lost all his hearing ability by the time he wrote some of his greatest works (such as the late quartets).

My question is, would these works have been any more interesting, thrilling, or more accomplished, if he had been able to hear a goddam thing?

Well. we'll never know, but does that in any way throw doubt on the assumption that in general it's better for a musician to have good hearing than to be stone deaf? Does it mean that wearing ear-plugs to protect our hearing is a waste of time?

If you can't be arsed to learn to read music, that's really up to you. But please spare us the b/s "reasons" as to why it doesn't matter. I doubt you're convincing anyone, even yourself

Edited November 5, 2010 by Earbrass

[endorka]

[quote name='silddx' post='1012385' date='Nov 4 2010, 06:18 PM']Chris Squire, one of the most revered bassists in rock music history. He has very little knowledge of music theory and as far as I know doesn't read music notation.[/quote]

For the record, I do not believe one has to be able to read music or have a formal knowledge of music theory to create good basslines.

On the other hand, if one looks deeply at good pop & rock songs, it is frequently the case that there is at least one member of the band who has a formal knowledge of music and/or who is really clued up. Not so pretty/more mature keyboard player syndrome anyone? :-)

Failing this, there is often a collaborator such as the producer, musical director or arranger who really knows what they are doing.

Because of the peculiary British reverse snobbery attitude to "book learning", and consequent protestations of ignorance by many musicians, you sometimes have to dig pretty deep to find this, but it is often there.

Jennifer

[lowdown]

[quote name='skankdelvar' post='1012396' date='Nov 4 2010, 06:31 PM']But just imagine if Squire's career falters and he has to take dep gigs. Say, with a Barbadian steel band or a Ragtime combo.[b] Without the dots, that would be him finished.[/b][/quote]



Nah...he could join a Yes tribute band.But then again he might be to old and image challanged.




Garry

[MacDaddy]

[quote name='Doddy' post='1012388' date='Nov 4 2010, 06:22 PM']He certainly wouldn't be any worse.[/quote]

this

[MacDaddy]

[quote name='Earbrass' post='1013005' date='Nov 5 2010, 09:36 AM']Let's look at it another way:

Ludwig van Beethoven, one of the most revered composers in music history. He had lost all his hearing ability by the time he wrote some of his greatest works (such as the late quartets).

My question is, [color="#FF0000"]would these works have been any more interesting, thrilling, or more accomplished, if he had been able to hear a goddam thing?[/color]Well. we'll never know, but does that in any way throw doubt on the assumption that in general it's better for a musician to have good hearing than to be stone deaf? Does it mean that wearing ear-plugs to protect our hearing is a waste of time?

If you can't be arsed to learn to read music, that's really up to you. But please spare us the b/s "reasons" as to why it doesn't matter. I doubt you're convincing anyone, even yourself [/quote]

Mahler though so which is why he reorchestrated some of Beethoven's works. I like to paraphrase Pratchett 'going deaf for Beethoven didn't stop him hearing the music, it just stopped him hearing the distractions'.