Chris Squire - Would he have been better as a reader?

[risingson]

[quote name='JTUK' post='1014446' date='Nov 6 2010, 04:32 PM']I have to say....am pissing myself laughing here.

same old, same old..[/quote]

Tough. It's a forum, anything is up for discussion within reason. Don't like it then go and talk to someone else, I thought that would be obvious instead of making pointless remarks like the one above, greatest of respect intended.

[quote]But you would be much better at math. You may not be the best but you can be much better. With enough study you could get to the point where the average person could not distinguish you from true genius. It would take someone with your new level of skill to make the distinction.[/quote]

Not really. There are classical players I know that have played for the sake of playing, their upbringing and level of education requires them to learn an instrument to a high standard. One violinist I knew was technically very proficient from a young age, but the soul and passion in her playing wasn't evident, and that can't be dressed up in any level of expertise. You need to love what you do, not be coerced into it by a pushy parent or teacher. A robotic and stiff performance will most certainly be apparent in a live situation.

[xilddx]

[quote name='Vibrating G String' post='1014938' date='Nov 7 2010, 01:13 AM']Judging by this answer I would say he knows more theory than you. That may be wrong but you can see how wrong it is to say someone doesn't know theory because they don't take every opportunity to flaunt it like Wooten flaunts his flamenco slaps. He clearly showed facility with the topic at hand and might have been toning down his answers for the mouth breather that asked him what kind of pick he uses.

[b]I think you need to reassess your assumptions on Chris. Or at least phrase things as a question and not facts[/b].[/quote]
That's a fair point. I think my being on here so often, and reading music magazines, means that when I think of THEORY, I think that means having a thorough grasp of THEORY and its application. So that, like a jazz improviser, they know exactly what they are playing and how it relates to the music they are playing over so it informs their note choices. I don't believe that knowing a few scales, some of the notes on the bass, some chord intervals and being able to recognise a perfect fourth, or a minor seventh interval constitutes a thorough grasp of theory and application, and that's the premise of my OP. Chris Squire is not Janek Gwizdala when it comes to theoretical knowledge and sight reading ability, that is very clear.

[skankdelvar]

I'd have thought it was pretty clear by now that:

* It's possible to deliver satisfying musical outcomes without being able to read or have a deep knowledge of theory

* Enhanced knowledge is a good thing for all sorts of reasons

* An inability to recognise that different values and approaches can happily co-exist in a spirit of compromise is intellectually unsustainable and is more illuminative of the general mind-set of the debater than it is of the debate.

Edited November 7, 2010 by skankdelvar

[JTUK]

[quote name='risingson' post='1014957' date='Nov 7 2010, 02:55 AM']Tough. It's a forum, anything is up for discussion within reason. Don't like it then go and talk to someone else, I thought that would be obvious instead of making pointless remarks like the one above, greatest of respect intended.



Not really. There are classical players I know that have played for the sake of playing, their upbringing and level of education requires them to learn an instrument to a high standard. One violinist I knew was technically very proficient from a young age, but the soul and passion in her playing wasn't evident, and that can't be dressed up in any level of expertise. You need to love what you do, not be coerced into it by a pushy parent or teacher. A robotic and stiff performance will most certainly be apparent in a live situation.[/quote]


No, that is fine...no problem. Just pointing out that this was called as a wind-up thread a good few pages ago. It will surely be called upon again some time soon.
Most can see that ....
but sure, I am not participating, so carry on. Doesn't matter to me either way.

As you say, I'm out.

[Spoombung]

[quote name='skankdelvar' post='1015181' date='Nov 7 2010, 12:47 PM']* An inability to recognise that different values and approaches can happily co-exist in a spirit of compromise is intellectually unsustainable and is more illuminative of the general mind-set of the debater than it is of the debate.[/quote]

Exactly. We British like amateurs. Winston Churchill and Chris Squire are good examples.

[xilddx]

[quote name='JTUK' post='1015182' date='Nov 7 2010, 12:48 PM']No, that is fine...no problem. Just pointing out that this was called as a wind-up thread a good few pages ago. It will surely be called upon again some time soon.
Most can see that ....
but sure, I am not participating, so carry on. Doesn't matter to me either way.

As you say, I'm out.[/quote]
I never meant this as a wind up thread. I meant it to be an interesting intelligent discussion. If I meant it as a wind up, it would have been easier to call it "JTUK is a Twat. Discuss.". I don't think you're a twat of course.

[the_skezz]

[quote name='silddx' post='1015314' date='Nov 7 2010, 02:50 PM']I never meant this as a wind up thread. I meant it to be an interesting intelligent discussion. If I meant it as a wind up, it would have been easier to call it "JTUK is a Twat. Discuss.". I don't think you're a twat of course.[/quote]

Though that does sound like an interesting thread...

[Pete Academy]

it's great having the theory knowledge, but having a good sense of time, groove and discipline will always get you the gig.

[Doddy]

[quote name='Pete Academy' post='1015571' date='Nov 7 2010, 07:20 PM']it's great having the theory knowledge, but having a good sense of time, groove and discipline will always get you the gig.[/quote]

Depends what the gig is.

[Vibrating G String]

[quote name='risingson' post='1014957' date='Nov 6 2010, 06:55 PM']Not really. There are classical players I know that have played for the sake of playing, their upbringing and level of education requires them to learn an instrument to a high standard. One violinist I knew was technically very proficient from a young age, but the soul and passion in her playing wasn't evident, and that can't be dressed up in any level of expertise. You need to love what you do, not be coerced into it by a pushy parent or teacher. A robotic and stiff performance will most certainly be apparent in a live situation.[/quote]
Yes but he'd still be better at math. I'm not saying education will bring soul, but merely improvement over the level of skill without education. It's quite a different statement to say education will make someone soulful and that's far from my claims.

I also think that if learning something makes you a worse musician the original assessment of skill was wrong.

[Vibrating G String]

[quote name='silddx' post='1015117' date='Nov 7 2010, 03:48 AM']That's a fair point. I think my being on here so often, and reading music magazines, means that when I think of THEORY, I think that means having a thorough grasp of THEORY and its application. So that, like a jazz improviser, they know exactly what they are playing and how it relates to the music they are playing over so it informs their note choices. I don't believe that knowing a few scales, some of the notes on the bass, some chord intervals and being able to recognise a perfect fourth, or a minor seventh interval constitutes a thorough grasp of theory and application, and that's the premise of my OP. Chris Squire is not Janek Gwizdala when it comes to theoretical knowledge and sight reading ability, that is very clear.[/quote]
I think that's a better way to put it

Jeff Berlin, theory master, was able to write out and perform Chris' parts with just a few days preparation. I would wager Chris would not be able to do the same for Jeff's parts on the Bruford albums.

[JTUK]

[quote name='Pete Academy' post='1015571' date='Nov 7 2010, 07:20 PM']it's great having the theory knowledge, but having a good sense of time, groove and discipline will always get you the gig.[/quote]


Have to disagree with you there, Pete. I think those are great attributes..and will surely get you some gigs above all else...and why shouldn't they...?
but some gigs would be beyond this guy, IME.

[Low End Bee]

So this Chris Squire. Was he the bloke in Buggles then?

[tauzero]

[quote name='skankdelvar' post='1014314' date='Nov 6 2010, 02:42 PM']Read, schmead. Far better to devote valuable practice time to learning little dance steps, playing l/h hammer-ons so you can wave to the audience, that sort of thing.[/quote]
Quite. I'm currently working on a major stage move - for the right hand, replacing throwing the goat \m/ or the peace sign m\/ with the Vulcan "Live long and prosper" sign \\// and it's pretty hard getting into position for that. Theory just doesn't teach you how to set a trend.

Edited November 8, 2010 by tauzero

[Ian s]

[quote name='Low End Bee' post='1016047' date='Nov 8 2010, 10:38 AM']So this Chris Squire. Was he the bloke in Buggles then?[/quote]

Yes, in a manner of speaking, Yes.

[peteb]

[quote name='Vibrating G String' post='1015924' date='Nov 8 2010, 01:04 AM']Jeff Berlin, theory master, was able to write out and perform Chris' parts with just a few days preparation. I would wager Chris would not be able to do the same for Jeff's parts on the Bruford albums.[/quote]
That's hardly the point - whether you like it or not Chris Suire has created memorable and influential music and sold million of records without making a great deal of compromise to do so!

Jeff Berlin is known as a technician, appeared occasionally as a sidemen when the original artist was unavailable and appeared on niche jazz albums of questionable merit and some bleedin awful solo ones...!

Edited November 8, 2010 by peteb

[xilddx]

[quote name='peteb' post='1017016' date='Nov 8 2010, 11:03 PM']That's hardly the point - whether you like it or not Chris Suire has created memorable and influential music and sold million of records without making a great deal of compromise to do so!

Jeff Berlin is known as a technician, appeared occasionally as a sidemen when the original artist was unavailable and appeared on niche jazz albums of questionable merit and some bleedin awful solo ones...![/quote]
And apparently sacked from Zappa's band when he was found to have been trying to secretly renegotiate his fee along with Vinnie Colaiuta.

[jonsmith]

Well, although I enjoy his playing in many other things, I wasn't too impressed with Jeff Berlin in that role. I believe he actually asked if he could change some of Chris's parts because he didn't like them. He wasn't allowed though, so we'll never know I guess. Tony Levin had a much better approach, but actually the ABWH thing demonstrates how key an element Chris Squire is within Yes.

As for the original question, I find it quite hard to imagine more appropriate basslines than the ones that were recorded. Theory gives you an understanding and knowledge that can broaden your palette, but I think some players have a natural sense of what to play that is almost instinctive. It can be independent of theory.

[skankdelvar]

[quote name='tauzero' post='1016096' date='Nov 8 2010, 10:14 AM']Quite. I'm currently working on a major stage move - for the right hand, replacing throwing the goat \m/ or the peace sign m\/ with the Vulcan "Live long and prosper" sign \\// and it's pretty hard getting into position for that. Theory just doesn't teach you how to set a trend.[/quote]
Quite. In the far more critical area of 'Presentation', one must step outside narrow musical cliches. I find Wilson, Kepple and Betty to be a fertile source of inspiration



Did you know there were actually 5 different Betty's over the years, including Hattie Jacques and Joanna Lumley?

Edited November 9, 2010 by skankdelvar

[Vibrating G String]

[quote name='peteb' post='1017016' date='Nov 8 2010, 03:03 PM']That's hardly the point - whether you like it or not Chris Suire has created memorable and influential music and sold million of records without making a great deal of compromise to do so!

Jeff Berlin is known as a technician, appeared occasionally as a sidemen when the original artist was unavailable and appeared on niche jazz albums of questionable merit and some bleedin awful solo ones...![/quote]
Chris is probably the reason I play bass, that and Burke Shelley but I digress... I'm a huge Yes fan and Fish out of Water is awesome so I'm with you on his talents. I was just making an observation on Jeff's incredible level of talent. Both have been my among my favorite players for many years.

[Vibrating G String]

[quote name='skankdelvar' post='1017110' date='Nov 8 2010, 06:06 PM']Did you know there were actually 5 different Betty's over the years, including Hattie Jacques and Joanna Lumley?[/quote]
Huh, I never heard that. Did you know Joanna s a cousin to Robin Lumley of Brand X?

[urb]

I can see sight reading being a bit of a problem when you're noodling away on this thing,

[skankdelvar]

[quote name='Vibrating G String' post='1017312' date='Nov 9 2010, 11:00 AM']Huh, I never heard that. Did you know Joanna s a cousin to Robin Lumley of Brand X?[/quote]
I didn't know that!

Those Betties in full:

* Clementine Churchill
* Olivia De Havilland
* Hattie Jacques
* Joanna Lumley
* Mrs Tinman