Fretless bass.... what's the benefit?

[Linus27]

2 hours ago, vincbt said:

Great timing for this thread as I am going through the exact same question and considering getting a fretless. Is it feasible to keep playing fretted while also learning fretless or does getting a fretless means locking the fretted basses in their box for a few months, or at least until things start to click? 

Personally, if you have played fretted for a while or have good technique, then leave the fretted packed away and just take the fretless. My switch was when I went to a 3 day song writing session and I took my fretless along as well. Picked it up in one of the sessions and found I could play it with very little problem and just played it all the time and haven't looked back  I now play unlined fretless only and actually find switching back to fretless takes some adjustment. I even sold my 1975 Jazz that had lines and blocks on impossible to play as there was so much clutter and distraction on the neck with the frets, blocks and lines. I only have fretless basses now

[Trueno]

I played almost all of my gigs with a fretless. I actually found it easier for my bony arthriticky fingers… felt like I was coaxing the notes out and not holding down at all. I mostly played classic rock and for me it was just “playing bass”… although not having frets definitely changed my technique.

I went for side dots and ears (no lines). But you need mostly ears and feel… the side dots can disappear under stage lighting. I used to practise in the dark.

I play short scale now… because it’s better for my bony arthriticky shoulder. I’m back on frets but use light strings and an even lighter touch. It works for me.

[Grimalkin]

I've found the guys with the best intonation, have lines. Pino, who usually stays below the 12th and uses quite a lot a vib, is the unlined exception I go for but unlined players like Percy Jones, Alain Caron on fretless and Steve Bailey, the intonation is a real put-off for me.

[Grimalkin]

It depends what you want to play on it. Playing over the 12th is when you really have to pull your pants up. The human ear isn't that great with lower frequencies, there is some leeway, but in the high frequency ranges, you're wide out in the open. It has to be together or it sounds absolutely awful.

 

[Grimalkin]

^ Above is the sensitivity of the human ear in regard to pitch across frequencies.

[lownote]

I posted the following very recently in response to a call on whether or not to play unlined:

 

Welcome to the (un)marked side!  I mindlessly bought a cheap bass on eBay assuming it was fretted and it was not only fret-less, but unlined too. I had a choice - offload it, or play it. So I set to learn to play it.

 

Background - I had around eight years of fretted playing and a bit of lined fretless along the way.  So I wasn't entirely unused to not having the 'tin ladder'.  

 

First thing I did was check the position of the side dots - the only guide on my Revelation - to ensure they're actually on the notes, not in between as on fretted and many lined fretless. You are stuffed if the dots aren't on the note. To do this I carefully tuned the bass then then placed my finger in line with the side dots and checked the tuning in each case with a  good tuner.  In my case all my side dots were on the nose, except the 12th fret dots which were a centimetre adrift: really odd.  I had Bass Gallery in Camden black out the existing 12th dots and drill and mark new ones on the note.

 

Then I started playing, simple tunes for a while, where possible using G, C, D, A, etc, notes that are in line with one of the side dots (1,3,5,7.etc), looking to see where I placed the note but also listening to the result, and occasionally using the tuner to check I was in the right place. 

 

This all came much easier than I expected pretty much from the get-go.  The key is starting to really listen and think with your ears, not just plonking your finger behind a fret. 

 

Then I started on the 'inbetween' notes; that is notes like F# (2nd fret E), C# (4th fret A), etc  which fall between the side dots.  I tried to work out carefully where these notes should be, remembering that there are two notes between the nut and the third fret mark, and again each side of the 12th fret. And also that the gaps between notes get smaller as you go higher up the board.

 

I found that being slightly out doesn't matter so much, providing your rhythm is good, even more so if you're playing with a  band or track.  But finger position does get more and more critical the higher you go.  It took me just hours to master the note positions up to the 9th fret marker; months to get the hang of 'frets' above the 12th, where the space between notes is much smaller. So playing  low down is pretty easy, chords or soloing high up is really difficult without guide marks - I keep a lined fretless for the latter activities. 

 

In summary I'd offer five advices: 1/ don't let it terrify you, it's not as hard as you think 2/ spend a little time at first working out where notes are and consciously practice finding them, looking at first, then looking away after a while. 3/ Correct yourself when you get it wrong then practice the corrected move - don't get into the habit of guessing a position and then adjusting your finger, you'll do it all the time. 4/ Start  simple and slow at first and then speed up. 5/  learn to trust your ears and fingers to get it right if you give them a chance.  You can use chalk or other temporary lines to help but it's just prolonging the conversion process.

 

I didn't have a book, or video, just worked it out for myself. I'm pretty thick, even challenged, at music and I could do it. I hold down the bass chair in a good regional blues and R&B band playing U/L FL all the time and haven't been sacked yet.

 

Come back if you need more.

 

John    

[wateroftyne]

When I went fretless, I didn't think about it too much. I just picked it up and played it.*

 

*Important note: I'm not trying to cop Jaco parts or owt like that. Had that been the case, I suspect the transition would have been less successful.

[Grimalkin]

If you buy a lined, decide whether you want to intonate behind the line or directly on top of the line. Willis says he wished he had began splitting the finger by fretting directly on top of the line, but it's too late now.

 

If you buy an unlined, Pino used to intonate the bass with another fellow making the adjustments for him as he played it. So that the notes were where Pino visualised them, the bass was intonated to him.

Edited January 24, 2022 by Grimalkin

[ricksterphil]

Thanks for all the advice chaps, much appreciated. 

[ead]

You can play Fb on a fretless bass 😁

[NickA]

On 24/01/2022 at 13:46, Grimalkin said:

If you buy a lined, decide whether you want to intonate behind the line or directly on top of the line. Willis says he wished he had began splitting the finger by fretting directly on top of the line, but it's too late now.

 

If you buy an unlined, Pino used to intonate the bass with another fellow making the adjustments for him as he played it. So that the notes were where Pino visualised them, the bass was intonated to him.

I really don't understand that.  Being a bit thick perhaps.

 

 The only thing you can change is the position of the bridge cars, so you could use those to shorten/ lengthen the scale so that you get a perfect octave at OR slightly behind the 12th "fret" line. Ok.  But if the lines were put there assuming AT the fret tuning and you adjust for BEHIND the fret, won't all the other fret lines be out of tune? 

 

For years my fretless was slightly sharp at the dot ( so tuned for behind the fret?) but apart from the dots not lining up with notes, it put the bridge pickup too close to the bridge car, so I tweaked it to get the exact octave at the 12th fret dot. There are no lines so it's not an issue. 

 

Ps: no lines on pino's stingray either.

 

Edited January 25, 2022 by NickA

[Boodang]

For me the fretless is a more expressive instrument. Not just slides, which is easy to over use, but vibrato (which you can't replicate on a fretted) and micro tonal adjustments to add colour.

I've got both lined and unlined. With unlined I feel like I have more freedom, the lined is better for intonation higher up (you still have to use your ears as just putting your finger on the line won't work) but I feel it takes more concentration to play. I started on an unlined though, so that probably explains it.

I find fretted hard to play, you can only put your finger in one place, just behind the fret. Much more freedom on a fretless!

As for technique, it's not the Jaco thing. I pluck over the fingerboard around the 17th area and only move off the board if I'm playing high up.

[Waddycall]

Fretless is just fun! It doesn’t have to be for training reasons but enjoying the fun will improve your ear - it has mine. I started off by fitting a fretless neck to my MIM P. I then bought a loaded jazz body and fitted it to that. I’ve since decided to go unlined and bought another unlined neck. It didn’t take any adjustment from lined to unlined as I was looking at the side dots more than the lines.

[MacDaddy]

On 23/01/2022 at 17:46, NickA said:

  You lose slap, sustain and some attack of course.

 

 

The 'B1tch on Bass' (her self titled moniker) from Rockbitch played fretless and used to do an awesome slap solo. I assure you she was not lacking in sustain and attack.

 

I would try to post a link, but I'm at work and I'm not going to do a search for Rockbitch on my work computer 😆

Edited January 26, 2022 by MacDaddy
Filter changing 'female dog' to beach

[ezbass]

Pino slapped his fretless Stingray on Paul Young’s Come Back & Stay.

[Grimalkin]

On 24/01/2022 at 22:47, NickA said:

I really don't understand that.  Being a bit thick perhaps.

 

 The only thing you can change is the position of the bridge cars, 

 

 

Which on a fretless, changes the position of the note on the board. I could set my lined basses up to intonate directly on top of the line, or slightly behind them. Pino set his intonation to were he visualised the notes naturally, to him. Perhaps it was to do with the parallax view.

 

There were not a lot of lined fretless basses around in the '80s, I don't remember seeing one in the music shops I used to frequent back then. It wasn't "the done thing."

 

[Grimalkin]

"A couple of years ago when Ibanez decided to hand-build the GWB1005 using master luthiers, it was an opportunity to rethink the design and I was determined to see if I could solve the problem. I did a lot of experiments – relocating the nut, moving the bridge – etc. The final result was that if you want to use the lines on a fretless as a reference, then you’ll get the most consistent relationship by intonating the bass with the line directly in the center of your finger. At the time (some 20+ years ago) I was still switching between fretted and fretless and I was determined to try to take advantage of the muscle memory that I had built up by playing fretted just behind the fret, so I intonated the fretless the same way. What I didn’t realize is that it throws off the whole scale length of the fingerboard and creates the inconsistencies. Around that same time, I had noticed a company called Novatone making swappable magnetic fingerboards that had the lines on a fretless with independent lines for each string with lots of variations in the fret lines from string-to-string, so I assumed that these discrepancies were normal. So I taught myself the wrong way to play in tune and have been doing so ever since.
As for your own inclination to compensate for this kind of setup – well, if it ain’t broke . . .
But if you’re just starting out, make it easier on yourself and put that line down the middle!"

 

Gary Willis.

 

Locating just behind the line means you have to back off slightly on the upper frets above the 12th, and come forward slightly for notes below the 5th fret. Those are the inconsistencies Willis is talking about. As far as he has found, if you fret directly on top of the line it's far more consistent positioning and intonation.

[NickA]

5 hours ago, MacDaddy said:

an awesome slap solo.

Well you can .  Ryan Martinie does it too and you can find Jonas Helborg and Michael Manring using slap techniques on a fretless .. but they never get the twang of Mark King, Stan Clarke, Marcus Miller or Ryan on his fretted thumb basses.  I spent much time and money trying to configure a slappable fretless .. ( bright strings, slap plates, brass plate under the bridge, active electronics) but now admit that frets work better!  Anyway slapping is so out of fashion it's almost illegal, I don't dare in public, So not really an issue.

 

4 hours ago, Grimalkin said:

Those are the inconsistencies Willis is talking about.

Makes sense now. 😁

[Bunion]

Pertybass slaps his stingray pretty good 😄

 

 

[Grahambythesea]

I remember a maker (possibly Wilkinson) putting a metal plate near the top of a Fretless fingerboard to enable slap on Fretless. But as NickA says it’s so not NOW.

[Boodang]

Wilkes used to put 'percussive' plates on their fretless basses.

[Grahambythesea]

That’s the one 👍🏼😁

[Boodang]

53 minutes ago, Grahambythesea said:

That’s the one 👍🏼😁

I had one back in the day... lovely bass, wish I'd kept it.

[bnt]

My favourite fretless players are those who don't do the clichéd fretless things. The early 80s UK players are a big part of that for me, such as Pino (natch), Percy Jones, Mick Karn, and Paul Webb of Talk Talk, an unsung bass hero IMHO. Listen to Peter Gabriel's Sledgehammer, that's Tony Levin on fretless through an octave pedal with a plectrum.

 

I converted my Tune TWB43 to fretless last year and it still needs a bit of work but it's very playable. I used a dark wood filler in the fret slots to give me lines, but found they're basically useless at the moment, since in sanding down the fretboard, the rosewood grain came out lighter and obscures the lines. When I play standing with a strap, I can only see the edge of the fretboard anyway, and the side dots are tiny. So I'm basically playing by ear unless I bend over and squint. 👓

[Boodang]

Yep, Percy Jones was a huge influence, especially the Brand X days back when Phil Collins was playing proper drums!