The importance of a good drummer, the pocket and groove

[krispn]

So I've been in a funny predicament where my main pub band (Gig 1) has been getting a new, dep drummer up to speed while our main tub thumper is doing the final studies on her masters. My other main gig (Gig 2) has had a new drummer come on board since Dec (and a third band I've recently joined has a recently acquired cajon player)!

I had a written out a big thing but condensed it into this simplistic question...

What makes a good drummer? Is there a difference between pocket and groove? From my experience the new drummers, the dep and our new Gig 2 drummer just don't have that same magic. Gig 1dep just ain't listening and he's drummer away to his own agenda and not really listening to me or how we play as a band. He's a regular on the local circuit but just not a fun guy to play with. He's been shown the door following the last gig and I hope a buddy of mine can fill in for the remaining shows! We want to have a good dep for those occasions where our regular drummer night want a break so it's important we get someone who listens.

Gig 2 drummer is competent but I feel lacking a little something...consistency maybe. Kick patterns aren't quite locking in the same and as I'm planning to leave this band at the end of the month I'm not too bothered about doing too much but still want us to sound tight!

I know with both 'my drummers' in Gig 1 & 2 we 'listen to each other' and lock in really well. For all the fancy stuff Gig 2 drummer can and does play it's always tasteful to the song and him I agreed the most satisfying song we played together was in an original tune where it's just a really simple 4/4 beat with an equally simple 8th note low E pounding away which just sounds massive and fit's the song perfectly. The thump/punch we get with that locked in is just smile on the face stuff... and we both know it - we can feel that connection between kick and the bass and it's powerful.

In Gig 2 we have tunes where we play little things our way and it just feels like it grooving hard even on bog standard tunes. Again I believe it's the connection/understanding from over 10 yrs of playing in various original bands and side projects together.

So what makes a good drummer? I know familiarity is a big factor and I can't deny that we probably all play better with people we've know longer.

I'd be keen to hear your thoughts!

 

 

Edited March 5, 2019 by krispn

[Lozz196]

I think we all have our own style and it’s a case of matching up with someone on a similar wavelength. Familiarity certainly plays a part too, getting used to a new/different drummer will take time.

[Davo-London]

I'm a drummer too and feel and the ability to mix it up depending on the song is a big factor.  I played on Sunday night with the my-way-or-the-highway drummer that has their own view and will play on regardless even if their selection sounds awful - tend also to be a know-all.  Otherwise, there's the I'm-just-here-for-fun drummer that just weaves in and out of the meter but manages to follow the mean groove well enough.  There's the teenage drummer that only has one volume, fff, and cannot do fills without losing the beat. Then there's the semi-pro drummer that really gets it and manages to lead the song in the sense of dynamic and groove and manages fills (with purpose) and sounds drop-dead fabulous.

I'm none of these.  I mean I aspire to the semi-pro but I'm not there yet.  I genuinely believe a drummer should not play in a gigging band until they have 10 years of play/practice under their belt.

Beginner drummers are awful to play bass with.  You don't know whether to follow them or show them up.

Before you ask, I've been playing for 14 years.

Peace 

Davo

 

[Davo-London]

I will also say that as a drummer I play with a lot of beginner bassists (church - because anyone can play the bass right?) and that's not much fun either.

Davo

[Cuzzie]

Rhythm section is a rhythm section for a reason, bass and drums - gotta lock

[Barking Spiders]

I'm firstly a drummer but there are some excellent drum machines around if you want to guarantee reliability, consistency, sobriety and a quick getaway after the gig.  One of the reasons I switched to bass when playing gigs was the hassle with transporting kits to venues, setting them up,  fixing the mics, taking them down and putting them back in the van. With a machine all you need to do is plug in, switch on and way to go! I no longer have an acoustic kit preferring my Roland which takes little time to set up but I've had other past band members complain about its look.

[bubinga5]

28 minutes ago, Lozz196 said:

I think we all have our own style and it’s a case of matching up with someone on a similar wavelength. Familiarity certainly plays a part too, getting used to a new/different drummer will take time.

this

[musicbassman]

You know how sometimes you put a song together in rehearsal and it just 'works' almost immediately?

And other times you can work and work on a song trying to get it to sound right and trying to polish a t u r d comes to mind?

I reckon its all down to some sort of basic rhythmic conflict - usually between bass and drums, bass and guitar, or guitar and drums.

So I think it's sensible to break the song down into its core elements play the song through with just bass and drums, just guitar and drums etc, and try and source the problem.

Easier said than done. Even if done with the utmost tact prepare for denials, hissy fits and name calling, especially from guitarists!

Why are some musos so defensive that even if its b.obvious there's a problem they won't admit it, or throw their toys out of the pram?

The songs never going to sound better unless you pipoint the problem.

And don't get me started on drummers with dreadful, weak, or non existent kick drum technique - just about impossible to lock together with the bass.....

[cheddatom]

I think to be a good drummer, you have to listen to what everyone else is doing, but also play with real confidence. If you're under-confident, or insecure in your playing, it can really show, especially in terms of big dynamic changes. For example, if you go from quiet to loud, that first beat of the loud bar needs a really hard hit on the bass drum.

Conversely if you're over-confident you're probably not going to be listening to the rest of the band, you'll concentrate on what you're doing instead, play silly fills, speed up etc. and then the whole band sounds sloppy. 

I don't think you need to be technically good at drums to be a good drummer

[SubsonicSimpleton]

1 hour ago, Davo-London said:

  I genuinely believe a drummer should not play in a gigging band until they have 10 years of play/practice under their belt.

Seriously?

If you could travel back in time and apply this standard retroactively to drummers, bass players and guitarists I think you would at a stroke wipe out in almost its entirety blues, jazz, rock and roll, rock, pop and punk music from the face of the planet.

[bubinga5]

 "I genuinely believe a drummer should not play in a gigging band until they have 10 years of play/practice under their belt"

Total nonsense imo. .. I know drummers who have been playing for 2/3/4 years who could smoke ( live and recorded) drummers who have been playing for 20/30 years. And you can switch that around.

Edited March 5, 2019 by bubinga5

[Stub Mandrel]

I've been lucky. All the bands I've been in have had good drummers. The first (definitely the best musician in the band - started off playing side snare in a competition winning marching 'jazz band') and last were particularly good and gave me lots of good advice. Between the drummer and keyboardist of my first band I got syncopation beaten into me 🙂

But where would we be without drummer jokes eh?

[Misowaki]

Another 'also a drummer' here =D

My first instrument was bass.  About 10 years back I joined a 3 piece on bass as they'd never had a bassist.  The drummer eventually got ousted.  He'd been playing a decade but only played the most basic stuff and reckoned himself the tits.  I jumped on kit as I was better and not even actually a drummer at this point.  But not that there's anything wrong with basic stuff but if you're keeping it that straight, you have to be Phil Rudd, really. 

He got turfed because of his timing and general angriness.  Eventually, I got turfed and they reformed under a different lineup with old boy back on kit.  Still angry, still sucky.
I got turfed because I had ideas and didn't just want to do what I was told! =D

I only really came back to bass properly a few years back but in time away from bass, I learned so much about the way the two work together.

What makes a good drummer?  A good bassist, and vice versa.  But other than that, I'd say it's the qualities you want in your mates or a partner:

- Empathy (matches the energy of the song)
- Good listener (plays accordingly, for the song)
- Good humour (has fun with it and fun to be around)
- Reliable (timing and won't back out of a gig last minute)
- Understanding (they don't have to be a musical genius and neither do you, you just need to understand what you're doing and aiming for)

That's my 2 pence.
 

[jezzaboy]

Hi mate. Are you still playing with Kenny? If you are, pass on my regards.

If he is the one you got shot of, well don`t!😁

 

[krispn]

No he left of his own volition. Kenny is magic but sadly moved on from the choir gig. I’m off at the end of the month. I’ll pass on you said hi when I see him next. 

[uk_lefty]

The best drummer I ever played with was also the best all round musician I ever met. He didn't play loads of instruments, he was dedicated to his drums, but he thought in major detail about song structure and dynamics etc. We played in a three piece with an egotistical guitarist/ singer who had the ability on guitar to back up his arrogance. Me and the drummer were left to jam under his improvised solos and we got to a point where we could drop out for odd beats and come back in without even eye contact. It was magical stuff. He made me a much better bassist ... The guitarist did to, but the drummer wanted to make me betters the guitarist wanted me to keep up! 

 

What made him good? Dedication to his instrument but always in the context of the song. 

[chris_b]

A good drummer will have good ears and good timing.

There has never been a good band that doesn't have a good drummer. If you don't enjoy what and how your drummer plays, it's time for a new drummer. 

[krispn]

Yeah I think just having played with three new to me drummers is such quick succession really brought it home. A good band/rhythm section or whatever works best when they are listening or understanding each other. I’ve overheard people saying me and Gig 1 drummer are tight - y’know when you over hear punters at gigs waffling to mates in between songs and to be fair we do play well together.

Some of the best musicians I know are drummers without a doubt. I think they hear more of the band or think more about the whole band rather than just their moment in the spot light .

 

[JamieMillsBass]

Context of the song, dynamics and timing are the three most important things in a drummer for me.  

You can have the best timing in the world but if you don't play to the song it will sound stinky poo.  You can play to the song and in time but not get the dynamics right and it will sound stinky poo.  You can play to the song and dynamically but not in time and it will sound stinky poo.

For wedding band/corporate function stuff kick needs to be tight, hit with confidence and locked in.

[Stub Mandrel]

It's worth reading what Neil Young says about playing with Crazy Horse.

There are deeper, more primal forces at play - the ones that bonded our deep ancestors together through music.

Is it a coincidence that the most powerful parts of a good gig are when the audience sing, stomp, headbang, clap or dance to the music, no matter how well they are 'in the pocket'?

[Unknown_User]

For me a drummer that listens to the band is so important.  The originals band I'm in got rid of a drummer last year who played with big headphones on with a click track in them.  He didn't try to play with the band at all.  He wanted to play to the click track and basically do four minutes of drum solo.  It made playing the songs a bit of a chore at times.  I felt like I was being pulled between keeping time with the drums and trying to play along with the guitars and drag them into the rigid timing of the drums that didn't really suit the music.

Had three practices with a new drummer now and even though he wasn't that familiar with the songs at first he listens to the band and plays along with what's going on and it's making the songs a pleasure to play.  Even when he's feeling his way around a song he's not learnt properly yet or goes into the wrong section or whatever, it's so much easier to play along to.

[MisterT]

20 hours ago, Davo-London said:

There's the teenage drummer that only has one volume, fff, and cannot do fills without losing the beat.

We got one of them in his late 40's. I wish he'd just lay down 8ths on the hihat and a steady kick / snare but oh no... here comes a fill guys (you had one of those a bar and a half ago, remember?) and you'll love this one...two...hang on, five... wait, nearly got it... and... back on the one....or is that 3?

[Linus27]

I play with a "my-way-or-the-highway drummer that has their own view and will play on regardless even if their selection sounds awful - tend also to be a know-all". Even my 10 year old daughter last night was talking about the band and asked what's the name of the one who can't play drums very well  Has no idea of dynamics, timing, playing for the song to the point where people are commenting that the songs don't actually have a back beat and are just a series of fills. The band is a hoot to play in though but there is zero musical enjoyment as there is no drum and bass locking in. He also follows the vocals so when there are no vocals he tends to get lost. The only way I can sustain it is to look as it as a bit of fun with the rest of the band and a money making exercise and not as an enjoyable musical project. So, as a side line I have formed another band with superb musicians and its so refreshing and rewarding to play with incredible musicians. It has kept me sane.

[HengistPod]

According to me, a good drummer (among most other things already mentioned):

1. Observes what everyone else is doing. This becomes particularly important at the end of a tune, where heads-down hammering doesn't cut it while everyone else is trying to catch their attention with a view to perhaps not going round the riff another 4, 8 or 16 times.

2. Makes even a rudimentary attempt to figure out a tune before rehearsal instead of trusting their untrustworthy instincts. "I listened to it in the car a few times, but I always get distracted about halfway through. I'm sure I can wing it, though."

3. Notes where in a song a drum part acts as a cue for others, and at least attempts to imitate it in the right place.

4. Doesn't fill a pub/club with unrestrained cymbal splashing, and learns when and why to close the hi-hats.

5. Notes that aforementioned cymbals aren't just there for indiscriminate bashing.

6. Can control their overall volume, tries not to increase same with increasing excitement (see also: tempo).

7. Understands that starting a song slightly too slow can be recovered from more easily than starting it too fast.

8. Thinks about where the bass and guitar amps need to go before turning up early at a gig and setting up, then moaning when asked to shift everything a foot to the right.

7. Puts their kit away after a gig, instead of socialising excessively.

8. Buys their own bloody gaffer tape (see also: singers).

[cheddatom]

I was chatting about this to one of the best drummers I know last night and a couple of things came up

Playing "melodic" or "musical" beats that fit the song, rather than just picking a beat and keeping time

Moving with the music, not just an effort to entertain others but rather actually "feeling" the music

Fast fills, double strokes and stick tricks do not make a good drummer, but when a good drummer does it, it's very entertaining