stingrayPete1977 Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 I can't imagine there's a single organisation that grew to the point of having a recognised flag that the planet wouldn't have been better off without their existence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Browning Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 Even Nelson it would seem: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/aug/22/toppling-statues-nelsons-column-should-be-next-slavery Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beer of the Bass Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 There exists a middle ground between proudly displaying statues in public parks and squares and having them smashed up by angry mobs. No longer doing the former does not imply that the latter is condoned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 [quote name='Beer of the Bass' timestamp='1503394332' post='3357793'] There exists a middle ground between proudly displaying statues in public parks and squares and having them smashed up by angry mobs. No longer doing the former does not imply that the latter is condoned. [/quote] Yes. Removing I don't have an issue with. Proudly displaying? I'm not sure. Destroying, I don't agree with. They're historical monuments regardless of any feeling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad3353 Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 (edited) [quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1503393964' post='3357786'] I can't imagine there's a single organisation that grew to the point of having a recognised flag that the planet wouldn't have been better off without their existence. [/quote] The International Red Cross, maybe..? Can't think of any more, though. Edited August 22, 2017 by Dad3353 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fretmeister Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 [quote name='TimR' timestamp='1503394644' post='3357798'] Yes. Removing I don't have an issue with. Proudly displaying? I'm not sure. Destroying, I don't agree with. They're historical monuments regardless of any feeling. [/quote] Now we are getting somewhere. No one is calling for the destruction of history. Merely that certain persons and events are not celebrated. Plenty of museums have "Dictators of the 20th Century" areas, or wax works of murderers. They also have dummies with KKK white hoods on them. That is the proper place for them - museums are academic institutions preserving history. They do not celebrate such persons, they merely ensure their existence is remembered. But there is still a difference. Hitler caused a huge world wide upheaval. Pol Pot ran one of the hugest forced labour regimes in history. Stalin took Lenin's ideas and turned them into something Lenin never intended and oppressed millions of people They are historically significant. Jimmy Savile was just a nonce. There is no need to keep any statue of him anywhere. not even to prop a door open in the basement of a storage unit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T-Bay Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 [quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1503395629' post='3357809'] The International Red Cross, maybe..? Can't think of any more, though. [/quote] There must be loads, they just don't spring to mind easily. The RNLI and The Dogs trust are two that jump,to my mind but there must be loads, but I guess they are only 'local' as in the UK. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlloyd Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 [quote name='TimR' timestamp='1503394644' post='3357798'] Yes. Removing I don't have an issue with. Proudly displaying? I'm not sure. Destroying, I don't agree with. They're historical monuments regardless of any feeling. [/quote] There's some parallel with the situation in Ukraine where they have just removed 1,320 statues of Lenin. The intent is not to wipe out history but to remove public symbols of occupation during the Soviet era. I imagine most of them are going to be destroyed. Should all 1,320 statues be preserved? Does anyone need that many statues of Lenin? Maybe keep a few significant examples for museums? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HowieBass Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 [quote name='Les' timestamp='1503340318' post='3357422'] I don't actually but the singer has one clamped to his mic stand cos' he got hit in the head by a digger bucket and can't remember stuff now. He is blissfully unaware that you all hate him for this. Here's an innocent picture of it at one of the fascist fundraisers you all think we do on a regular basis. [/quote] That looks a bit like The Tudor in Wigan (sadly missed)! Regarding the Dukes of Hazzard - I don't remember ever watching a full episode and I've only just twigged that the old Soulwax song Daisy Duke is about.... um Daisy Duke LOL http://youtu.be/PdVe4jpMu78 Maybe a song to cover? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billy Apple Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 [quote name='dlloyd' timestamp='1503397225' post='3357829'] There's some parallel with the situation in Ukraine where they have just removed 1,320 statues of Lenin. The intent is not to wipe out history but to remove public symbols of occupation during the Soviet era. I imagine most of them are going to be destroyed. Should all 1,320 statues be preserved? Does anyone need that many statues of Lenin? Maybe keep a few significant examples for museums? [/quote] That's a bit rough. I like the Beatles. I suppose you had to be there at the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad3353 Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlloyd Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 [quote name='Billy Apple' timestamp='1503399783' post='3357854'] That's a bit rough. I like the Beatles. I suppose you had to be there at the time. [/quote] lol... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les Posted August 22, 2017 Author Share Posted August 22, 2017 Everybody contributing to this is to be applauded for not flying off the handle/shooting from the hip and generally taking my original question in the spirit is was intended despite it being a controversial issue Thank you Les Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daz39 Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 The difference is that Thomas Moore is long dead and his actions gone. POC suffer very real discrimination right now. It's not that long since segregation etc. The flag (even though it's not actually the flag the Confederate Army used (there are many versions)), is used as representation by a vocal minority of white southerners as a symbol of their superiority and a return to the old ways (The south will rise again, and all that cr*p). They try to defend it with 'Heritage' and 'History' etc. but most of these idiots still think they didn't lose first time round. It's a very real and very racist symbol of oppression and has no place in modern society - nor do the statues of the traitors (at least not in public - in a museum would be useful - although given the whitewashing of many history textbooks over there, many people probably believe the slaves came here to fulfil the American Dream.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayPete1977 Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 [quote name='T-Bay' timestamp='1503396140' post='3357817'] There must be loads, they just don't spring to mind easily. The RNLI and The Dogs trust are two that jump,to my mind but there must be loads, but I guess they are only 'local' as in the UK. [/quote] Most have become top heavy corporate monsters I won't support anymore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ambient Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 [quote name='TimR' timestamp='1503389702' post='3357713'] Regarding the statue of General Lee, I'm against destroying historical monuments what ever they are. It's what Henry VIII and ISIL are doing. It's what they did to Sadam Hussain's statue and it was an indication of the worse things to come. Maybe an amended plaque be put up on the statue with a fuller explanation. Although I'm aware that the truth doesn't figure highly in the US at the moment. [/quote] They're not that historical. Most were erected on the 1920s and 1930s, not to commemorate, but as a sign of dominance over the black communities. This is the era of Jim Crow laws and terrible oppression. They still had segregation in many southern states. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T-Bay Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 [quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1503402994' post='3357888'] Most have become top heavy corporate monsters I won't support anymore. [/quote] Very true, but not the two I mentioned as far as I know, and that's still very different to being a negative influence on the world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ambient Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 I've seen mention of political correctness. There's no such thing as political correctness. There's not saying or doing things that may upset someone. Surely something that should be inherent in a civilised society? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayPete1977 Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 [quote name='Les' timestamp='1503402572' post='3357882'] Everybody contributing to this is to be applauded for not flying off the handle/shooting from the hip and generally taking my original question in the spirit is was intended despite it being a controversial issue Thank you Les [/quote] I think we can all see that your intentions are good, personally they wouldn't bother me even less so if you swapped one for a stars and stripes but it looks that ship has sailed. Get some new ones and keep rockin' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayPete1977 Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 [quote name='T-Bay' timestamp='1503403177' post='3357895'] Very true, but not the two I mentioned as far as I know, and that's still very different to being a negative influence on the world. [/quote] I've got mixed feelings on the dogs trust but that's another thread, one we've previously done too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jus Lukin Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 (edited) - Edited February 25, 2022 by Jus Lukin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlloyd Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 [quote name='Jus Lukin' timestamp='1503405898' post='3357942'] Sounds like the flag issue is a done deal already, and I don't know enough about the American civil war to comment anyway, although it has interested me for a long time. Perhaps this is time to read up a little more. [/quote] If you have Netflix the Ken Burns' Civil War multi-part documentary is on there. I can't recommend it enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fretmeister Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 [quote name='dlloyd' timestamp='1503416158' post='3358056'] If you have Netflix the Ken Burns' Civil War multi-part documentary is on there. I can't recommend it enough. [/quote] Thanks for that - added it to my watch list Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lurksalot Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 Loads of people dress up as pirates , wave pirate flags and have pirates parties , there used to be a thing called dress up as a pirate day. Pirates weren't very nice , they were murderous barbarian thieves as I recall , but they have gone , the flag is seen as a humorous artifact , and when used on hats and fancy dress it matters not. But the confederate flag is still a symbol of racists, it is current, it is not historical , it reminds us of history mainly by its ongoing use as a racist banner . Les is on the money and saw this coming , fair play Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_b Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 [quote name='Les' timestamp='1503312959' post='3357042'] We have an Americana show/image, we advertise ourselves as "The North Wests only cowboy rock band". It's all cowboy boots, cowboy hats and "howdy y'all" we dress up and put a show on that's generally very well received and it's tongue in cheek. . . . Is it time to lose the flag ? [/quote] The flag is only a prop so I guess another would do just as well, how about the Lone Star flag of Texas? But if your audience only sees the flag as a design you'd probably be OK to keep it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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