The band that really should work....But

[KingPrawn]

I have found myself in a really odd situation. I'm involved with a band that has 3 other incredible players, two are classically trained and play day in day out orchestras etc. The lead singer is fab and decent guitarist.

But....

There is a barrier in that the two highly trained players have to have the dots in front of them. They are really struggling to make the transition to learning a song without the dots. Equally the lead singer is struggling to get to grips with being handed lead sheets, as she is really an intuitive player. I find myself as piggy in the middle. I can just about hold my own with work between rehearsals. I really want it to work as when it gels it sounds great.

Just wondering if any of you BCers have any tips to make this work? wheres the middle ground?

[Mykesbass]

What do the orchestral players play? Why can't they read (for the time being)?

[gjones]

It depends on what kind of music you play but the two classically trained players need to break free. If you're playing stuff that repeats sections and you don't have a problem remembering it, then they need to step away from their score and learn the music. They have no excuses.


Edit - After I wrote the above, I googled on the subject and came up with this. It seems many classically trained musicians find it incredibly difficult to drag themselves away from the dots. http://blog.brillkids.com/?p=126

Edited July 9, 2017 by gjones

[LeftyP]

My wife plays oboe in an orchestra and has great difficulty playing without the music in front of her. I think that orchestral players need to be in sync with each other and the conductor so following the dots is essential and it just becomes ingrained in their playing. I think the bass guitar and the types of music it is used in lends itself more to freestyle playing.

[KingPrawn]

[quote name='Mykesbass' timestamp='1499635000' post='3332683']
What do the orchestral players play? Why can't they read (for the time being)?
[/quote]

That's what I thought. Aside from making the musical transition. There's a huge environmental change. We playing traditional Irish/ Celtic folk music, which is a passion we all share. I'm thinking it's such different worlds.

[bazzbass]

take their sheets away from them, call out the chords, GO

[Grangur]

My Bro in Law is a classically trained cellist. He performs concerts in a duo. Many others do too, and they perform without the dots. It can be done.

Good luck

[Mykesbass]

[quote name='KingPrawn' timestamp='1499642362' post='3332726']


That's what I thought. Aside from making the musical transition. There's a huge environmental change. We playing traditional Irish/ Celtic folk music, which is a passion we all share. I'm thinking it's such different worlds.
[/quote]
Then I would say let them read. If you and the singer know your parts then all should be good. I can't see this as being like the rock bands with music stands debate personally.

[Japhet]

I'd suggest jamming some stuff to get them improvising. Set a groove going and see what comes out. Classical music is very rigid and most other types are the complete opposite. It will take time to adapt.

[Oopsdabassist]

[quote name='Japhet' timestamp='1499669841' post='3332777']
I'd suggest jamming some stuff to get them improvising. Set a groove going and see what comes out. Classical music is very rigid and most other types are the complete opposite. It will take time to adapt.
[/quote]

This, plus, all the celtic folk type music I see played in pubs is pretty improvised on the spot anyway.....which to me is much better than rigid 'doing it by the numbers'

[mikel]

They dont need to improvise, just ask them to learn the parts they have to play. If they are that great surely its not a big leap to remember a few pieces of music by rote.

For me nothing looks more meh than a semi pro band having music stands on stage, and if the singer has to read lyrics from a sheet it just looks so un prepared.

If Rick Wakeman could/can play the entire Yes set without resorting to sheet music I feel sure these guys can memorise a few songs.

[ead]

I played the violin to a pretty decent standard when I was younger (with dots), however didn't have too many issues leaning stuff to play without them when I picked up the bass. Just takes a bit of time and maybe a few simple tunes to start with.

[Bassassin]

A long time ago I went out with a classical basoonist/mezzo soprano. She was technically superb at both disciplines - but the most unintuitive musician I ever met. I was highly amused when she was surprised that I practised a lot - she thought "pop musicians" didn't bother with that sort of thing!

And from the other perspective, a couple of years back I was asked to play a few gigs with a folk/traditional band, standing in for a member who was away for a while. I said sure, let me know the set list, keys, arrangements, give me a week to learn them & then let's get a rehearsal or two. They said no, just expected me to turn up at the gig & busk 20 or 30 songs I didn't know & might never have heard before! Because that's the Folkie way, apparently. Unsurprisingly I declined.

Different worlds.

Edited July 10, 2017 by Bassassin

[LITTLEWING]

I've always said that people who have to read music to play have no musical soul. A bass guy, keyboard or guitard who've learnt 300 or more toons in their lifetime and can rattle them off with the odd little inaudible mistake, then play an improv solo from somewhere inside their heart - THAT'S a musician.
I've seen guys on cruise ships backing mini stars that have to read to play and actually sound great and spot on, but I often wonder if they could really hold their own in a jam situation.

[lowdown]

[quote name='LITTLEWING' timestamp='1499711394' post='3333091']
I've always said that people who have to read music to play have no musical soul.
[/quote]


Sorry, I have to disagree with that.

http://youtu.be/N3MHeNt6Yjs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWcnQU0iVYw

Edited July 10, 2017 by lowdown

[mikel]

[quote name='LITTLEWING' timestamp='1499711394' post='3333091']
I've always said that people who have to read music to play have no musical soul. A bass guy, keyboard or guitard who've learnt 300 or more toons in their lifetime and can rattle them off with the odd little inaudible mistake, then play an improv solo from somewhere inside their heart - THAT'S a musician.
I've seen guys on cruise ships backing mini stars that have to read to play and actually sound great and spot on, but I often wonder if they could really hold their own in a jam situation.
[/quote]

It could simply be that they have spent the required 10000 hours + going through the hoops and formal learning process that ties them to a structure that they are now perfectly comfortable with. To step outside that ingrained structure might take a change of mindset and practice format.

Edited July 10, 2017 by mikel

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='LITTLEWING' timestamp='1499711394' post='3333091']
I've always said that people who have to read music to play have no musical soul....
[/quote]
I've heard some people say that other people who have to use frets, or amplification, or electronic tuners, or even a plectrum, have no soul at all, and certainly not a musical soul.

Of course, I don't myself agree with them.

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='KingPrawn' timestamp='1499633862' post='3332669']
I have found myself in a really odd situation. I'm involved with a band that has 3 other incredible players, two are classically trained and play day in day out orchestras etc. The lead singer is fab and decent guitarist.

But....

There is a barrier in that the two highly trained players have to have the dots in front of them. They are really struggling to make the transition to learning a song without the dots. Equally the lead singer is struggling to get to grips with being handed lead sheets, as she is really an intuitive player. I find myself as piggy in the middle. I can just about hold my own with work between rehearsals. I really want it to work as when it gels it sounds great.

Just wondering if any of you BCers have any tips to make this work? wheres the middle ground?
[/quote]

The middle ground has to be where two of you adopt a less formal approach while the other two accept a more formal approach ... and all meet somewhere in the middle. But everyone will need to understand what is expected of them or it ain't going to work.

[EssentialTension]

Here we have one dot-reader reading and one dot-reader playing from memory. Mind you the one reading probably knows quite a lot of the dots from memory. Either way very soulful if you ask me ....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9YowLzeC0c

[lowdown]

Plenty of working musicians (and part timers I should imagine) who read AND busk, take solos on heads and are excellent at many styles.
So the bit about cruise musicians (above) is rather silly.

Classical musicians, are a different entity all together. They are often playing many different things within one piece.
They might be playing the tune/theme, they might not. They might be playing part of a tune for several bars before another section take the tune.
They could be playing divisi chords, harmony lines, counterpoint lines, different bpm's, several metre changes, the conductor pulling the tempo all over the place,
or even 40 bars tacet, trying hard not to get lost. Then you get the soloist that remembers complex solos pieces.

The Repertoire changing every season, short rehearsal times for complex pieces. It's all very much worthy of music stands.
So to turn up and just 'play' is quite often alien to them. The OP band needs to have a compromise really.

[Dan Dare]

In my experience (such as it is), I find that classical players tend to want the dots as a comfort blanket. They don't actually need them - most are very accomplished - but they have always had them and find it hard to break the habit. If they are willing to try without at rehearsals, they may be surprised at how well they can manage without them. But (and it's a big but) they have to be willing to try. Some I've encountered just wouldn't. If that's the case with your situation, I would think about whether you want to continue with it. It could be very trying.

[Mykesbass]

[quote name='LITTLEWING' timestamp='1499711394' post='3333091']
I've always said that people who have to read music to play have no musical soul. A bass guy, keyboard or guitard who've learnt 300 or more toons in their lifetime and can rattle them off with the odd little inaudible mistake, then play an improv solo from somewhere inside their heart - THAT'S a musician.
I've seen guys on cruise ships backing mini stars that have to read to play and actually sound great and spot on, but I often wonder if they could really hold their own in a jam situation.
[/quote]

What complete and utter tosh

[Dan Dare]

[quote name='Mykesbass' timestamp='1499721596' post='3333197']


What complete and utter tosh
[/quote]

You're quite right. I read and find it very useful - you can learn things so much more quickly and easily. Nobody questions the need to be able to read the language, claiming it "limits soul/creativity". However, I wouldn't wish to see an actor reading from a script on stage. It's about presentation. Musicians reading parts in a performance situation can look lifeless - as if they're not really there. Worse is seeing them reading off iPads, their faces illuminated by that ghastly blue glow from the screen. I use parts to learn material, but would prefer not have them in front of me in a performance situation.

[Yank]

If you play an instrument, you're a musician. We all just play differently.

[thepurpleblob]

I was a "classically trained" (I hate that expression, but you get the idea) percussionist before learning the bass. Not a very good one by the way. I had never played anything without the dots in front of me. And that was about 30 years worth on and off.

It was the hardest thing. You actually learn to think of music in terms of dots on a bit of paper more than the sound in your head. At least that's how I would explain it. It was very hard to transition.

If I'm learning something tricky I still print off a bit of manuscript and scribble down the dots because it helps (me) to visualise it.