How do you recognise a good tonewood?

[Sambrook]

I'm fascinated by the luthier's art, and I love the great variety of beautiful woods available, but how do you tell a good piece from an indifferent one? They all sound the same when I knuckle them.
Also, how do you know which woods will combine well? Is it just received wisdom?

[PlungerModerno]

I'm not going to scream "but tonewood is all make believe" - even though that is my opinion when it comes to solid body instruments with regular potted magnetic pickups.

I will say woodworking generally, as well as lutheiry (not sure how to spell that) often focuses on the specifics of wood - picking the correct, or best piece. If I wanted to learn more (and I do) I'd look at those who make acoustic instruments, esp. classical stringed things like the cello, contrabass etc. Whether you feel wood is all important to the tone of an instrument (i.e. choosing a very dense piece of rosewood or ebony will make a big difference to tone on a fretted instrument) the wood is definitely essential to the function of an instrument. It's got to be strong and stable. Workability is also good to know. As is allergen info and the like!

[neepheid]

I'm terrible with names and faces, I need to have met the particular piece of tonewood a few times before recognition kicks in.

[Grangur]

[quote name='Sambrook' timestamp='1434109369' post='2796780']
I'm fascinated by the luthier's art, and I love the great variety of beautiful woods available, but how do you tell a good piece from an indifferent one? They all sound the same when I knuckle them.
Also, how do you know which woods will combine well? Is it just received wisdom?
[/quote]

It usually has a Warwick neck attached.

[EssentialTension]

[url="http://basschat.co.uk/topic/73234-tonewoods"]http://basschat.co.uk/topic/73234-tonewoods[/url]

... and several other threads.

[such]

wood doesn't matter, right...
shortly after buying my Marcus, I also bought a Classic 70's jazz with EMGs installed. I kinda liked it, so I also installed EMGs in the Marcus. So, identical basses geometrically (scale length, shape, body-neck attachment, pickup positions and spacings) also had identical pickups. Guess what happened after I put identical strings (new D'Addario ProSteels .045-.105)? They sounded different. The difference while amplified was reflecting the difference that I could hear unplugged.

Long long time ago I also for a little while had two 5-string Warwick Corvettes, one with ash body and wenge neck, the other with bubinga body and ovangkol neck. The difference was even greater; it was hard to believe that the pickups and preamp were identical and identically arranged.

If you play your solid body electric bass while sitting down, what happens when you rest your chin on the body? Do you feel the vibration? Do you "hear" the sound through your bones? Aren't the pickups mounted in that vibrating body? So, aren't they also vibrating, relative to the also vibrating strings? So, isn't it possible that what the pickups pick up is vibration of the strings against the body, and if the body against the strings, combined?

[PlungerModerno]

[quote name='neepheid' timestamp='1434120420' post='2796913']
I'm terrible with names and faces, I need to have met the particular piece of tonewood a few times before recognition kicks in.
[/quote]

- I never forget a woodgrain - but I find it hard to recall names of wood - especially if it's exotic and not named obviously, like snakewood:

[quote name='such' timestamp='1434138516' post='2797152']
wood doesn't matter, right...
shortly after buying my Marcus, I also bought a Classic 70's jazz with EMGs installed. I kinda liked it, so I also installed EMGs in the Marcus. So, identical basses geometrically (scale length, shape, body-neck attachment, pickup positions and spacings) also had identical pickups. Guess what happened after I put identical strings (new D'Addario ProSteels .045-.105)? They sounded different. The difference while amplified was reflecting the difference that I could hear unplugged.

Long long time ago I also for a little while had two 5-string Warwick Corvettes, one with ash body and wenge neck, the other with bubinga body and ovangkol neck. The difference was even greater; it was hard to believe that the pickups and preamp were identical and identically arranged.

If you play your solid body electric bass while sitting down, what happens when you rest your chin on the body? Do you feel the vibration? Do you "hear" the sound through your bones? Aren't the pickups mounted in that vibrating body? So, aren't they also vibrating, relative to the also vibrating strings? So, isn't it possible that what the pickups pick up is vibration of the strings against the body, and if the body against the strings, combined?
[/quote]

Interesting experiences . . . my understanding of things, both from my own experience (swapping out pickups, setting up instruments etc) and learning about solid body bass guitars from others, is not that wood can't make a difference - but that other things are so much more important when using non-microphonic magnetic pickups . . . in any case, I love wood and know that getting a stable instrument that sounds great, wether acoustic, electric, solid or otherwise - it's no accident.

[bubinga5]

not them bloody worms again.

Edited June 12, 2015 by bubinga5

[discreet]

[quote name='such' timestamp='1434138516' post='2797152']
If you play your solid body electric bass while sitting down, what happens when you rest your chin on the body? Do you feel the vibration? Do you "hear" the sound through your bones? Aren't the pickups mounted in that vibrating body? So, aren't they also vibrating, relative to the also vibrating strings? So, isn't it possible that what the pickups pick up is vibration of the strings against the body, and if the body against the strings, combined?
[/quote]

The pickups only pick up the vibration of the metal strings disturbing a magnetic field. They don't pick up any of that sound you feel in the wood. Whether the pickups themselves are vibrating or not is irrelevant. None of that vibration is picked up. The single thing that makes the most difference to the tone of a bass guitar is the physical position of the pickup(s). Next up is type of strings. Then type of pckups. And of course there's the EQ, tone circuit, preamp, amp and cab, the room, how the bass is physically being played, etc etc. What the body is made from is way down the list, if it's on the list at all.

Blind testing consistently turns up comments like 'lovely woody tone' from an acrylic bass, or pickups screwed to a plank of scrap plywood. Having said that, I do have a theory that thicker necks result in a heftier tone, and one-piece maple necks sound different to those with maple or rosewood caps, but I'd be just as happy to have it conclusively proved that I'm talking out my arse.

Edited June 14, 2015 by discreet

[HowieBass]

I now like to think of a bass as a structure that supports a vibrating string where the vibration leaks out at each end - in effect leaking out at the nut and bridge, and also at the point where you stop/fret the string (fingerboard/fret), these points, where the ends of a vibrating string are fixed, behave as imperfect mirrors. Since these end points are imperfect mirrors, they're unable to contain all of the vibrational energy of the string, so some vibration leaks out beyond the nut, beyond the bridge, and beyond the fingerboard/fret, into the rest of the instrument - into the neck, the headstock and the body; which act as heat sinks. These heat sinks will have characteristic resonance modes, not unlike the wooden blocks of a xylophone. I see the body and neck of a bass acting as absorbers of energy, they take it from the string, but only at specific frequencies, frequencies that correlate to the resonance modes of the instrument - this is why and how dead spots occur where the major contribution is from flexure of the neck and headstock. I imagine dead spots are less of a problem with necks made of very stiff materials that resonate at high frequencies outside of the range covered by the bass note fundamental and low order overtones - such as graphite and aluminium?. So if construction method (single piece or laminate neck, inclusion of graphite reinforcing bars, types of wood, bolt on or neck through) makes a difference, and it seems it does, I think it's likely because there's a process of some of the vibration energy being sucked out of the string, resulting in the colouration of a note in terms of the balance between the fundamental and its overtones. Maybe the wood tap test is looking for notes that don't interfere destructively with the range of frequencies you want to 'sing' with a bass guitar. All in my humble opinion obviously.

Edited June 14, 2015 by HowieBass

[White Cloud]

Bit of a contentious issue this...with two distinctive camps. Its a pointless argument of course.

I am of the opinion that it is impossible for the overall structure of any object not to be influenced in any way by its components

[miles'tone]

[quote name='HowieBass' timestamp='1434252912' post='2798023']
I now like to think of a bass as a structure that supports a vibrating string where the vibration leaks out at each end - in effect leaking out at the nut and bridge, and also at the point where you stop/fret the string (fingerboard/fret), these points, where the ends of a vibrating string are fixed, behave as imperfect mirrors. Since these end points are imperfect mirrors, they're unable to contain all of the vibrational energy of the string, so some vibration leaks out beyond the nut, beyond the bridge, and beyond the fingerboard/fret, into the rest of the instrument - into the neck, the headstock and the body; which act as heat sinks. These heat sinks will have characteristic resonance modes, not unlike the wooden blocks of a xylophone. I see the body and neck of a bass acting as absorbers of energy, they take it from the string, but only at specific frequencies, frequencies that correlate to the resonance modes of the instrument - this is why and how dead spots occur where the major contribution is from flexure of the neck and headstock. I imagine dead spots are less of a problem with necks made of very stiff materials that resonate at high frequencies outside of the range covered by the bass note fundamental and low order overtones - such as graphite and aluminium?. So if construction method (single piece or laminate neck, inclusion of graphite reinforcing bars, types of wood, bolt on or neck through) makes a difference, and it seems it does, I think it's likely because there's a process of some of the vibration energy being sucked out of the string, resulting in the colouration of a note in terms of the balance between the fundamental and its overtones. Maybe the wood tap test is looking for notes that don't interfere destructively with the range of frequencies you want to 'sing' with a bass guitar. All in my humble opinion obviously.
[/quote]

Great post and I absolutely agree!

[discreet]

I would say that if it is proved conclusively that the material a bass body is made out of has [i]any [/i]bearing on the sound that comes out of the output jack, then it is a vanishingly small percentage of the total sound and the 'tone' of a bass guitar is influenced far more by the strings and electronics of that bass, the circumstances under which that bass is played and how that bass is addressed by the player.

Edited June 14, 2015 by discreet

[PlungerModerno]

Very interesting points - I agree dead spots and other very detectable phenomena are a fact of solid body electric basses . . . but are more about mass, stiffness and the other properties of the wood - not the species, which is well down the list when it comes to predicting the properties of an individual piece of wood. Looking up the species may of course give good information on the average properties of the wood from the tree though.


As for the original question - "How do you recognise a good tonewood?" - I think there's two areas of discussion - both may benefit from open discussion:

1. How do you recognise good wood?
2. Tonewood, what is it, is it an important thing in a typical solid body bass?

For the first part - it's got to be suitable to the demands it'll be put under - the pieces of lumber need to be good (adequately dry, free of significant flaws, appropriate grain density and direction). A good example wood be the longstanding tradition of using Yew for longbows . . .but not just any piece - choosing the right piece is critical to making a high performance bow. The best are very symmetrical, using sapwood and heartwood in a pretty clever way (they have very different properties under tension & compression):


For the second part, I can see a lot of subjective experience & opinion but no clear proof of it's influence in solid body instruments... I don't want to shove my opinion down anybody's throat however. Believe as you see fit, and please share your opinion or experience if that's something you want to do.

[chriswareham]

The notion of tonewoods has been comprehensively proven to be bollocks in the violin world, where we're talking about an acoustic instrument so these threads about electrically amplified bass guitars amuse me no end.

[discreet]

[quote name='chriswareham' timestamp='1434320009' post='2798673']
The notion of tonewoods has been comprehensively proven to be bollocks.
[/quote]

[HowieBass]

Hmmmm, but a violin is a violin isn't it? I would imagine it has different resonance modes and it's not a great deal of mass able to resonate and sap energy from a vibrating string... do violins suffer with dead spots? I genuinely don't know. I'm sure that all components of an instrument influence its behaviour and certainly strings, pickup construction and position, electronics, how it's played (fingerstyle, pick, muting) make clearly audible differences but I wouldn't dismiss the woods involved, otherwise how can people consistently hear differences between maple and rosewood fingerboards?

[PlungerModerno]

[quote name='HowieBass' timestamp='1434346355' post='2798727']
. . . how can people consistently hear differences between maple and rosewood fingerboards?
[/quote]

Not sure. Not sure they do that is ! At least due to the fretboard material on fretted instruments.
On unfinished fretless instruments - well I imagine it'd be like fret material: Softer will tend to wear faster and absorb and reflect string vibrations slightly differently. The main difference between fretless & fretted tone is not the fretwire or fingerboard material however - it's the string contact area (like caterpillar tracks vs. conventional wheels).

IME a bass with a rosewood board always feels slightly different to a maple boarded one - but it's voice will be defined by the strings, setup, electronics, playing technique, and of course how well the player can get along with the instrument. I find it more plausible that people are listening with their eyes and/or their fretting hands (which may prefer one fretboard over another) - than the "tonewood" theory that there is an audible difference due to the wood species of the fretboard. Now a spongey fretboard made of a tough foam rubber may just about work - and sound different (all dead spots?), but a suitable fretboard blank will not have those properties. It will be quite hard and dense like most rosewoods or maples, or a usually denser ebony, as opposed to softer and less dense woods like redwood.

[Beer of the Bass]

[quote name='chriswareham' timestamp='1434320009' post='2798673']
The notion of tonewoods has been comprehensively proven to be bollocks in the violin world
[/quote]

Reference, please.

[discreet]

Actually the OP's question is 'how do you recognise a good tonewood', not 'does type of wood make any difference to the tone of a bass', so we've probably all missed the point.

[Kiwi]

Its a bit hit and miss, if the truth be told. No piece of wood is exactly the same and there's no way of knowing what the instrument will really sound like until its built. Plus how its built will change the response of the instrument as well.

However, some companies have managed to achieve remarkable consistency in their instruments - Wal, Celinder, Musicman and Dingwall to name but four. They tend to use a fairly simple approach to construction and the same woods. Dingwall and Musicman aim for a specific weight for their bodies and necks. Alembic and Status produce very consistent instruments as well but their construction is more complex and doesn't always rely on wood.

Having said all that, its still possible for an experienced luthier to get within a reasonable ballpark of a particular result. But they need to have a lot of experience using the woods they've selected to know how the qualities they percieve in sawn lumber translate into a finished instrument. Ironically luthiers who use a very wide variety of woods often don't have enough experience in using each species to deliver a specific outcome. So they'll be able to make you a great bass but whether it delivers what you want to hear is another thing.

[Sonic_Groove]

[quote name='Beer of the Bass' timestamp='1434360725' post='2798828']
Reference, please.
[/quote]

+1

[bassmachine2112]

Ironwood is best for metal ?

[Machines]

[quote name='bassmachine2112' timestamp='1434366927' post='2798900']
Ironwood is best for metal ?
[/quote]

Only if the Forresters make it (not the Whitehills). Anyone that gets this reference is as sad as me.