jonnythenotes Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 All I am trying to say, is when you buy certain musical instruments, unless you play for your own pleasure, it usually means involving other instruments, amps PA's etc for it to do its job. An expensive watch, a vintage bottle of wine, a super car, an ocean going yatch or even a private aircraft are all stand alone, and can be used or enjoyed independently from other watches, cars, yatchs etc. With a lot of musical instruments, and particularly the bass, they have to rely on other instruments and players for them to sound their best. Once you introduce these other 'elements' to get the best out of your bass, can be where control is lost in how it sounds to an audience. Its like being the strongest link in an unpredictable chain. I am certain the Fodera sound wonderful, and streaks ahead of most £1000ish basses, if you were just testing bass against bass, but add a few more musicians to the mix, and wind it up to gig volume levels,and that margin would soon shrink, not because of the bass, but because of everything else going on round it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzyvee Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 (edited) [quote name='jonnythenotes' timestamp='1428415526' post='2741059'] . After you get your new wonder bass, do you then have to upgrade your amp and cab. No good putting aa £11000 bass through a Laney combo. Then are you going to find a new band, where all their gear is as good as yours....don't want to lose all that quality in a mess of lesser instruments. Then there is the PA.... That will have to be pretty good to show off the full potential of the bass. Also, make sure you have a top notch engineer... You cant mix something like that without a bit of expertise... you don't want it sounding like a run of the mill Fender. What about boomy stages, funny shaped rooms, and stuff that changes the sound you want that you have no control over. Then there is living in the fear of theft or damage. These mega basses sound great on there own, but once you introduce all the other countless things that make up a band, and the things that make a bands sound, your £11000 investment won't sound too different to instruments at a fraction of that cost. I use a Yamaha Bb2024....cost £1400 new... Not everyone's cup of tea, but It's a great bass that can take a few knocks, built like a tank, and out Fenders most new build Fenders in terms of sound. If you have the cash or desire...why not buy a super bass,, but don't forget that it won't sound like it did in the shop when you start gigging it. . [/quote] You do raise a good point about putting an expensive bass through a budget amp. I think if someone is spending £11k or up that way for a bass, it would certainly make sense to think about their rig and upgrade where necessary as you could be stifled by the weakest link in the signal chain. ( Not sure what you do if the bass player themselves are the weakest link), :-) I can bet there will never be a consensus on what constitutes a good rig suitable for a bass of that calibre. So many variables and options like you suggest above. I'm glad people want to buy Fodera's whatever the price, personally after trying a few I'm not interested in buying one. I'm happy listening to musicians who make great music with them. Ultimately echoing what has been said before, market forces will decide if the price is right and if it isn't Fodera can decide to cut the price or stop making any more. Which will probably put the prices up for used ones even more. Also the price of them gives the forum something to let off steam about at regular intervals. :-) Edited April 7, 2015 by jazzyvee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uncle psychosis Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 [quote name='jonnythenotes' timestamp='1428420396' post='2741108'] All I am trying to say, is when you buy certain musical instruments, unless you play for your own pleasure, it usually means involving other instruments, amps PA's etc for it to do its job. An expensive watch, a vintage bottle of wine, a super car, an ocean going yatch or even a private aircraft are all stand alone, and can be used or enjoyed independently from other watches, cars, yatchs etc. With a lot of musical instruments, and particularly the bass, they have to rely on other instruments and players for them to sound their best. Once you introduce these other 'elements' to get the best out of your bass, can be where control is lost in how it sounds to an audience. Its like being the strongest link in an unpredictable chain. I am certain the Fodera sound wonderful, and streaks ahead of most £1000ish basses, if you were just testing bass against bass, but add a few more musicians to the mix, and wind it up to gig volume levels,and that margin would soon shrink, not because of the bass, but because of everything else going on round it. [/quote] You're still thinking of it in practical terms, like "the sound" is the only thing that matters. Its also, for many, about the look, the feel, being in a fairly exclusive club and also just the simple act of owning a thing thats been made by a master craftsman. Once you get up to that end of the price scale the instruments are as much a piece of art as they are a practical thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonnythenotes Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 I understand exactly what you are saying Uncle P, but to me, it is absolutely about being practical, and 'the sound' a bass creates. Unless I had a pretty tidy bank balance, I would always put function before design, and being fit for purpose in front of exclusivity. I still maintain a bass is at its best in with a 3 or 4 piece band, where it is responsible for most of the sound an audience is hearing and feeling. Of course the Fodera could do this brilliantly well, but is it worth an extra £10000 to do this, when more often than not, you would be the only one in the room who knows how exclusive your bass is. It's a case of diminishing returns, where at some point the extra loot is making minute differences to the sound and build quality of the instrument as it reaches saturation point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skankdelvar Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 Hats off to Mr Jonnythenotes for introducing not one but [i]two[/i] new aspects to the eternal Fodera debate. Nice work, Sir Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonnythenotes Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 Why thank you Skank...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Jack Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 All agreed and understood, but why buy a diamond ring when most people will be fooled by cubic zirconium? Why wear a silk tie when polyester looks just as good? If you do what you do in order to satisfy / impress / fool other people, then that's one thing. If you do what you do because you are you and you know the difference it makes, then that's a very different thing. I like nice cars but I don't like wasting money, so I buy pre-loved high-mileage BMW 5-series. I know plenty of people who will happily spend £50k on (more or less) the same car that cost me £5k. They don't see that as "wasting money" ... that's [u][b]my [/b][/u]view. Those of them who know what it has cost me to amass my collection of basses find my behaviour simply extraordinary. That's [u][b]their [/b][/u]view. Incidentally, it has cost me less to amass that collection than people like that spend on a single car. Which of course they sell after three years. There is no value judgment here. That's the whole point. People do what people do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skankdelvar Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 [quote name='jonnythenotes' timestamp='1428429147' post='2741206'] Why thank you Skank...... [/quote] You're welcome, amigo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonnythenotes Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 Well put Happy Jack... If some people want to use a sledgehammer to crack a walnut, let em get on with it. Their money, their choice... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
molan Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 Having read this thread all the way through, and also having played the bass in question I think it's interesting how the writer has approached the review. He's a Wal owner and knows his high end basses and there's no hint of him trying to be overly pretentious or fawning to the Fodera 'mystique' that's definitely out there. A few choice quotes are: [i]"This review will contain a lot of facts, but one will overshadow all the rest. It’s the ultimate elephant in the room – the number you’re thinking about right now: £11,000. That’s for a bass guitar, mind, not a family car. The Amboyna Burl Monarch Elite is by some way the most expensive bass we’ve ever reviewed in this magazine’s 13-year history, and in these financially straitened times, can a five-figure pricetag be justified?"[/i] [i]"up close, it’s a lovely-looking instrument. You would expect a hand-crafted bass guitar to have a great build quality but, as you’d expect, this instrument takes that finesse to an entirely new level."[/i] [i]"The pickups are made by Fodera in conjunction with Seymour Duncan. Crucially, because this is what you’re paying big bucks for, both the front and back pickup are housed in the wood taken from the body, mimicking the same layers and pin-striping; these take three entire days to craft and cost $550 on their own. They are truly remarkable to look at"[/i] [i]"If the build quality is strong, the playability of this bass is where you really discover what a remarkable instrument this is"[/i] [i]"Tonally the bass comes into its own, with a huge range of options – and here is definitely where a large chunk of your £11,000 is being spent"[/i] [i]"So far, so standard for any bass worth more than a grand. So why pay 11 times more? Simply this: every other bass I have played involves compromise – on sound, tonal variety, playability, controls. This bass doesn’t appear to know what compromise is. It is an instrument that you just don’t want to put down. Everything else – practice, rehearsal, tweaking sounds – comes after this. Add this to a huge range of tonal options and you really have something very special. I sat with this bass for two hours. It was effortless to play. I had to drag myself away"[/i] [i]"It’s difficult to think of an instrument as close to perfection when it also comes along with a price tag of £11,000. But if you have that much money to spend on a bass, perhaps that sum doesn’t mean to you what it means to most people. Whether it be cars or motorbikes or bicycles or guitars, if you pay at the top of the relevant price band you should get something special. [/i] [i]If you accept that you could spend a quarter of this pricetag on a very good bass, and that the more you spend over that amount the smaller will be the incremental payoff in terms of improvement, you’ll appreciate that what you have here is close to the very best. Personally, I fell in love with this instrument, and if I had £11,000 to spend, I would buy it in an instant" [/i] I think he covers a lot of what's been discussed here and does so in a very down to earth way whilst completely acknowledging the high cost - when it comes down to it it's obvious that he was blown away by it and I think that's where the 8 out 10 is coming from in terms of 'value' and the 10 out of 10 on other scores. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skankdelvar Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 (edited) Ta for that, Molan. An interesting read, Sir. It rather begs the question of The Perfect Bass - a bass that might perhaps score 10/10 on every scale. A bass so universally [i]perfect[/i] that everyone who played it would love it, irrespective of their technical prowess and chosen genre. What skills might be needed to craft such a bass? How much might it cost? And would they do a £250 Chinese clone, please? [color=#ffffff].[/color] Edited April 7, 2015 by skankdelvar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blue Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 (edited) I will never be a target for an $11,000.00 bass guitar. I'm not even a target for an $11,000.00 car I have maybe 3 basses I paid around $2,000.00 for. Blue Edited April 8, 2015 by blue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliusmonk Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 I agree the review isn't particularly bombastic, however it says nothing specific as regards tone or playability to help others understand. So it leaves me frustrated in that it seems that there are no words to explain it, you have to play it to know, and I will never be able to. So it may purely read as a marketing ploy: 'best of the best'. It actually might be, and the bass in question looks beautiful (I rarely like Foderas) - but this kind of review/opinion just adds to the mystique, and I think suspicion and irony have then to be accepted as well. Almost by definition, by the law of diminishing returns, the bass should be 3/10 at most on value for money - even if it scores 10 on all other categories. Btw, I've surely spent more than 11k on basses and gear, and I do like Alembics (the expensive Series/Signature ones) - which is a similar case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xgsjx Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 When making an item of quality you have to think about what it's made from, how much detail has gone in to it, the skill level of the maker and how long it takes to make. $550 might sound like a lot to make 2 pick up covers, but if you think how much you're paying for the time alone (3 days), then that's just over $180 per day for the materials, labour & overheads. Making cakes, I understand when a bride doesn't want to spend the money we charge for a cake that they're only going to see for a couple of hours. But if you took how many hours go in to the designing and creation of it, our skill levels and the attention to detail (no elephant skin fondant, no bulges, sharp edges and then there's the taste), then it falls into place & the bride can either afford what we do or goes to a local baker for something in their budget. So I understand why it would cost so much for such an instrument of this calibre. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muzz Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 (edited) [font=tahoma, geneva, sans-serif] [/font][size=4][font=tahoma,geneva,sans-serif]I've just seen it - yup, it's dull, despite the somewhat breathless description: "...a grain pattern so intense it is reminiscent of the sand storms on the surface of Jupiter..." Really? Heheheheeeeee.... [/font][/size] Edited April 8, 2015 by Muzz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ern500evo Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 I don't really see what the problem is tbh, if you think £11k for a bass is outrageous/ridiculous/crazy then you're obviously not who this bass is aimed at. It's surely the same for every possession that we own, there's a cheaper version that does essentially the same, be it a tv, oven, car, bike, phone etc etc. I personally don't particularly like the look of that bass but that's not to say I wouldn't pay £11k for a bass that ticked all the boxes for me, if I could afford it of course. In fact I've said before, if money was no object I'd buy two matching Ritter Jupiter's to hang on the wall as art, which in itself is scorned upon by many who state that basses are meant to be played, but I'm just being honest, if I was that rich then that is what I would do. Maybe I'm just a bit confused why someone who pays £11k for a bass needs to justify it, it's their money and if having played one they feel so blown away by it they feel they want to buy one then good luck to them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ead Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 [quote name='Muzz' timestamp='1428477151' post='2741541'] [size=4][font=tahoma,geneva,sans-serif]I've just seen it - yup, it's dull, despite the somewhat breathless description: "...a grain pattern so intense it is reminiscent of the sand storms on the surface of Jupiter..." Really? Heheheheeeeee.... [/font][/size] [/quote] Does Jupiter have a surface with sand on it? I think we should be told. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leschirons Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 [quote name='skankdelvar' timestamp='1428448404' post='2741464'] Ta for that, Molan. An interesting read, Sir. It rather begs the question of The Perfect Bass - a bass that might perhaps score 10/10 on every scale. A bass so universally [i]perfect[/i] that everyone who played it would love it, irrespective of their technical prowess and chosen genre. What skills might be needed to craft such a bass? How much might it cost? And would they do a £250 Chinese clone, please? [color=#ffffff].[/color] [/quote] Surely a bass such as you describe could only be made by the Dark Lord Sauron, in the fires of Mount Doom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RhysP Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 [quote name='ead' timestamp='1428494320' post='2741749'] Does Jupiter have a surface with sand on it? I think we should be told. [/quote] No it doesn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skankdelvar Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 [quote name='juliusmonk' timestamp='1428465951' post='2741505'] I agree the review isn't particularly bombastic, however it says nothing specific as regards tone or playability to help others understand. [/quote] To be fair, was there [i]ever[/i] a magazine review that was specific as regards tone and playability? 'One of the best necks we've ever played ... reassuring heft ... let's roll back the volume ... liquid jazz burp ... throaty precision growl ... convincingly solid hardware ... embarrassingly smooth knob travel ... fleck of overspray on the binding loses it a star ... one for the well-heeled semi-pro and the touring musician alike.' One might paste that tripe under a picture of almost [i]any[/i] bass and save a fortune on buying mags for their reviews. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliusmonk Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 Actually that is true, Skank. All reviews are essentially the same... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonnythenotes Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 Well said Skank...... That review is vague and open ended bollocks, with no specific facts, just very arty and journalistic wafflings and personal opinions in an attempt to show off the authors word skills. All that is missing from that nonesense is the authors name..... that Irish chap.....F. O'Dera Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soul-Fi Steve Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 Most I've paid for an instrument is around £3.5k. I've got instruments that are in the £1k to £2k range which are every bit as good quality wise as the highest priced instrument. I'm not sure that a Fodera is for me; it probably just as well I've not tried one as I'm not sure with my GAS habit it would be productive for my bank balance if I did try one! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yorks5stringer Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 Amusingly the Bass in question is rated 10/10 for Build Quality, 10/10 for Sound Quality and only 8/10 for Value. The obvious question is how do you quantify "Value"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 [quote name='bubinga5' timestamp='1428237491' post='2739415'] i wonder why the other bass makers in New York don't price there basses in the same way.? I'm sorry but Fodera price there basses very high, because they have very cleverly developed a name for themselves, and a reputation. There is no way Vinnie and his team make an instrument so superior to Roger Sadowsky or NewYork Bass Works, that they need to charge so much more, its just nonsense. they charge that much because they know they can get away with it. [/quote] I think you'd have to look at how they made the bass... and it may well be that Sadowsky is a parts bass by comparison and some of those parts are shipped in from other 'makers'. If you maintain a workshop full of hand crafting tradesmen, then I can see why you are getting close to double figures. Having said that... a few Foderas I've looked at and picked up recently would not persuade me. I'd rather a proper Ken Smith if in that ball park, but then also, I'm not into the coffee table thing anymore...so..?? Do I mind what these people want to charge...no, I just make my choice about whether I want one at that figure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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