Another plagiarism settlement

[The Admiral]

Hot on the heels of the decision in favour of Jeff Lynne and Tom Petty, re Sam Smith's track, another expensive day out in court, but this time for Pharell and Robin Thicke over similarities between their hit 'Blurred Lines' and Marvin Gaye's 'Got to give it up'. $7.3m dollars to be precise.

It raises an interesting point about whether this is merely unfortunate, and an almost subconscious act - based on listening to years of music, or conscious and deliberate. I've read that Ringo Starr would bring in songs to Beatles sessions and within seconds of him sharing with the band, they would point out that he had borrowed the tune inadvertently from something in the charts recently.

Anyone else done this in their own writing : as time goes on it becomes by definition, harder to find a new tune.

There is a video at the foot of the item which cuts between the two, and it's quite striking.

http://www.theladbible.com/articles/pharrell-williams-and-robin-thicke-have-to-pay-7-3-million-compensation-for-copying-marvin-gaye-song

[lojo]

Are there any rules to determine this kind of thing , like chord progression / factors for drum beats / melodys etc ?

If it's purely subjective , then it's all based on jury's opinion (and maybe love of a particular artist) and the amount of money the defendant has , as surely you can't sue without being worried about losing ?

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='lojo' timestamp='1426056361' post='2713775']
Are there any rules to determine this kind of thing , like chord progression / factors for drum beats / melodys etc ?

If it's purely subjective , then it's all based on jury's opinion (and maybe love of a particular artist) and the amount of money the defendant has , as surely you can't sue without being worried about losing ?
[/quote]
It's melody and lyrics that hold copyright. No copyright on chord sequence or bassline or anything else.

[Marvin]

I heard a great story told by Dave Stewart of the Eurythmics. He was in the studio, thought he'd come up with this great new idea for a song. He played it to everyone else present, who all turned and said...that's Fame by David Bowie.

As far as I remember it's melodies that hold copyright, nothing else. Beaten to it

Edited March 11, 2015 by Marvin

[xgsjx]

Unless that drumbeat or bassline is something that is part of the melody where if it was played on its own, it would be instantly recognisable.
Also certain sounds can be copyrighted too.

If it were not the case, that would give no copyright to the majority of DnB songs.

[EssentialTension]

One songwriting method - indeed a very common method - isto know exactly which songs are your influences and so to avoid copying too closely.

[Drax]

You do wonder what the whole point of this whole exercise is.

Feels less about protecting a legacy and more about self serving lawyers.

[JTUK]

I can never understand why Jethro Tull never sued the Eagles..?
Maybe they paid him off quietly ages ago..??

[BigRedX]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1426060481' post='2713810']
I can never understand why Jethro Tull never sued the Eagles..?
Maybe they paid him off quietly ages ago..??
[/quote]

Inventor of the seed drill who died in 1741? I'm sure any songs he wrote were long out of copyright by The Eagles' time. ;-)

[TimR]

[quote name='xgsjx' timestamp='1426057106' post='2713780']
Unless that drumbeat or bassline is something that is part of the melody where if it was played on its own, it would be instantly recognisable.
Also certain sounds can be copyrighted too.

If it were not the case, that would give no copyright to the majority of DnB songs.
[/quote]

Which seems to be the case here. The melody and lyrics are different to the Marvin Gaye tune, even the chord progression is different.

However the song appears, to all intents and purpose a very close approximation of the original.

[JTUK]

[quote name='Drax' timestamp='1426060415' post='2713809']
You do wonder what the whole point of this whole exercise is.

Feels less about protecting a legacy and more about self serving lawyers.
[/quote]

But there are MASSIVE career defining legacies by 2 Iconic bands who entire careers are built on a
'contested' song. Altho in the case of one... they haven't actually been anywhere near a court case, IIRC.

[Prime_BASS]

Hard to say exactly but surely when the similarity becomes so glaringly obvious it's hard to suggest it's a coincidence.

By definition it is not hard to write 'new' music. Vsauce on YouTube has an interesting video on the finite-Ness of music. there is a finite number of possible melodies but we have only used a very small percentage as we like what we like and we want to hear the same thing over and over again.

[Roland Rock]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1426061187' post='2713821']


Inventor of the seed drill who died in 1741? I'm sure any songs he wrote were long out of copyright by The Eagles' time. ;-)
[/quote]

haha

[Sammers]

[quote name='The Admiral' timestamp='1426053539' post='2713769']
Anyone else done this in their own writing : as time goes on it becomes by definition, harder to find a new tune.
[/quote]

My old guitar player came up with a riff and everyone thought it was brilliant, so we wrote a song with it.
He came back the next week and realised he'd inadvertently copied the riff from Jailbird from Primal Scream.. pretty much note for note.
Say's he never learnt it and wasn't that much of a Primal Scream fan but the song appeared on a old FIFA football game he used to play as a kid.

It was probably the best riff he'd ever "wrote"

[xgsjx]

I wrote a techno song back in the 90s & the hook was 5 notes going down the scale. It appeared some 4 or 5 years later as a vocal line in a Franz Ferdinand song (note for note).
I never actually released the song, though it might have been on a website somewhere, but the chances of it being they copied it are very slim. Had I released it as a song, then regardless of them hearing it or not, I would have probably had a case.

[Truckstop]

Well no because Fanz Ferdinand hadn't copied you. They'd just stumbled on the same chords. You'd have to prove that they'd listened to your music and then purposely copied it and then profited from it.

I think. Or at least that's what seems fairest!

[Twincam]

To me i thought the song was sufficiently different enough to not be a copy.

And this confuses me even more about how close you can get to others work, there is not an infinite amount of notes, chords etc.

Since i have been reading about this case ive noticed more and more songs are very similar. The Beatles Taxman and the Jam's Start i noticed just the other day for instance.

[Jus Lukin]

-

Edited February 28, 2022 by Jus Lukin

[xgsjx]

[quote name='Truckstop' timestamp='1426067891' post='2713902']
Well no because Fanz Ferdinand hadn't copied you. They'd just stumbled on the same chords. You'd have to prove that they'd listened to your music and then purposely copied it and then profited from it.

I think. Or at least that's what seems fairest!
[/quote]
It wasn't the chords, but a "riff".
I actually took it as a compliment to myself that I can come up with hooks as good as that.

[ras52]

[quote name='xgsjx' timestamp='1426069611' post='2713929']
I actually took it as a compliment to myself that I can come up with hooks as good as that.
[/quote]

Or you both "draw inspiration" from the same source

[4-string-thing]

I reckon there could be a couple more in the near future. Is it just me, or does Noel Gallaghers latest sound a bit like Bus Stop by The Hollies? Or that James Bay thing sounds very much like Charlie Boy by The Lumineers?

Edited March 11, 2015 by 4-string-thing

[JTUK]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EgO7MamJnqM

The story was that Jethro Tull played this on a tour that the Eagles supported them on around '71...
Tull were huge at the time, the Eagles hadn't yet written their 'masterpiece'

Don't think Marvin Gaye's song is anywhere near as close to 'Blurred lines' myself... very tenuous..??

[Annoying Twit]

[quote name='EssentialTension' timestamp='1426056636' post='2713776']
It's melody and lyrics that hold copyright. No copyright on chord sequence or bassline or anything else.
[/quote]

I'm not sure, but I think this isn't quite true. I thought that for something to be copyrightable, it had to be distinctive and an important part of a song. Hence, a chord progression or bassline could be copyright if it is both distinctive and original. E.g. I'm pretty sure that if someone lifted the bassline from Pink Floyd's "Money", that would infringe copyright due to the distinctive and original nature of it. But, "Us and Them" bassline? Root fifth-fifth. Root fifth-fifth. No way.

The Joe Santriani/Coldplay suit seemed to be based on a chord progression. There's no distinctive melody there that I notice. IMHO the JS piece sounds completely generic, and I think it's very unfair for Coldplay to be found to be in breach of JS's copyright.

Edited March 11, 2015 by Annoying Twit

[lowdown]

Blimey, $7 Million.
Pharrell won't be so Happy now.
As for being Thicke, it's cost him over $3 million for playing Piano on a hit,
that's taking 'Pay to Play' to extremes.
Some people will do anything to be in the business of show.

[The Admiral]

[quote name='4-string-thing' timestamp='1426071328' post='2713953']
I reckon there could be a couple more in the near future. Is it just me, or does Noel Gallaghers latest sound a bit like Bus Stop by The Hollies? Or that James Bay thing sound very much like Charlie Boy by The Lumineers?
[/quote]

Bus Stop was written by a 16 year Graham Gouldman (later of 10cc) so we'll wait and see!