fender jazz - old versus new

[lowdowner]

Sometimes I wonder whether this site is sponsored by Fender given the amount of adoration heaped on the brand (maybe I'm just jealous!)

Anyway, looking at second hand vs. new fender jazz models, I'm struck by how much money people seem to want to get for (or be happy to pay for!) older jazzes... for example, I've just seen one at my local dealer which is a 73 jazz with all original parts (sans new strings of course) for £2500.

Why are older Fenders more expensive - and if it's because they are 'better' why doesn't Fender actually just build basses as well as they used to?

<confused>

[jackers]

Older Fenders are more expensive because they are seen to have value as collectors items. Personally, I would rather have my 2012 P and 2010 J than the 60s/70s/80s equivalent, but there are plenty of people who are prepared to pay the extra.

[lowdowner]

That's interesting - so there's no intrinsic value in the age? Just street-cred and collectability?

[Jayben]

That seems to be the way it works with Fender, aye. It's the same with a lot of famous brands - massive hype but in reality not necessarily the best of it's kind. an example I use of this is Jack Daniel's - sure it's a famous name and everyone's heard of it, but I've tasted better whiskeys of it's ilk.

[jackers]

[quote name='lowdowner' timestamp='1344270112' post='1762031']
That's interesting - so there's no intrinsic value in the age? Just street-cred and collectability?
[/quote]

Indeed. I think, (and I'm sure there will be people who disagree), that new Fenders are actually better instruments, but there seems to be that nostalgic spot in people for an instrument that was built 40 odd years ago.

[Lord Sausage]

From what i've heard tho, older gibsons are better than new ones. I once played a 73 Standard and it was much better than a 95 custom. That is my only reference point tho it may not be completely true.

[Chris2112]

I find the best Fender jazz basses are the new ones, built in the old style! Take my Fender Jaco Pastorius fretless. Superb construction, excellent playability and awesome tone, all from a 'new' Fender built to the old design. The thing with newer Fenders (at least the high end ones) is that they have a consistency lacking in the older ones.

Take some 70's jazz basses, for example. Some sound fantastic and are a reasonable weight, but some sound cack and some of the ash bodied ones can weigh a tonne.

[12stringbassist]

Those with old jazzes will probably say they are the best. And worth the most.
I have a 2010 USA Fender Jazz and it's the only Jazz [i](that I've ever played)[/i] that I like the sound of.

[Fat Rich]

I think it's the CBS thing.

When I started playing the CBS and later Fenders were considered junk and largely worthless. The pre-CBS were better instruments before mass production and profit became the main focus, although Leo designed them to be cheap to build. There were a limited number of pre-CBS instruments so the price went up and they became desirable.

Now it's happening with 70s Fenders, there's a limited number of them around. So the people who would like a pre CBS but can't afford one buy a 70s instead. It's much more difficult to find a good one because they largely deserve their rotten reputation, but there are some great playing and sounding 70s Fenders out there if you're patient and willing to chuck some serious cash at one.

It'll be interesting to see if the 80s Fenders become collectable one day, I suppose they will.

As to whether the old ones are better, I've played a few pre CBS Jazzes and Precisions and they've all been great, some of them astonishing. I've never played a new Fender that sounds as quite as good, but it's a subtle difference.... your audience certainly won't hear it.

If the quality hadn't dived so much when CBS took over I reckon the prices for old ones wouldn't be so high.

[Spike Vincent]

[quote name='Fat Rich' timestamp='1344274975' post='1762120']
I think it's the CBS thing.

.

[/quote]

Agreed,I think it's a throwback to the percieved quality downturn after CBS took over Fender.Plus the rarity of an instrument actually surviving it's design function for so long. £2500 is ridiculous amount for a '73 Fender,although it does make me look at both my 78 Fender P's with increasing awe.

[redstriper]

You might want to look at this thread for some more opinions on this rather emotive topic:
[url="http://basschat.co.uk/topic/142695-why-do-the-old-ones-sound-better/"]http://basschat.co.uk/topic/142695-why-do-the-old-ones-sound-better/[/url]

[risingson]

If money were no object, I'd love to pick up a mid 70's Jazz with a colour scheme I really loved, have plenty of work done on it and have it set up to my spec and play it as my main bass. I like stuff with history and that 'worn in' look to it. It's a classic instrument!

The problem with that era of Fenders is that their QC was so hit and miss, hence why 'if money were no object part'. I find modern Fenders uninspiring unfortunately (I think it's psychological), and can't see myself picking up another anytime soon.

[JTUK]

Just play the one you are interested in and go from there.
There are as many old dogs out there as new dogs, IME..

Worse bass I ever had was a 75-ish Jazz so don't get suckered into that trap.
If you find the bass you want, then pay what is it worth to YOU..

[Musicman20]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1344279042' post='1762223']
Just play the one you are interested in and go from there.
There are as many old dogs out there as new dogs, IME..

Worse bass I ever had was a 75-ish Jazz so don't get suckered into that trap.
If you find the bass you want, then pay what is it worth to YOU..
[/quote]

Agreed.

For me, id try the new 2012 custom shop pup equipped MIA Jazzes. Superb upgrades like the classic but hardwearing bridge.

Never been a fan of the old bridges, no matter what is more 'vintage'. I really don't like the Badass models, purely because they look ridiculous.

[ikay]

Vintage basses are a bit like a favourite old pair of jeans. Well worn in, a bit frayed round the edges, maybe past their best but fit like a glove and feel 'just rght'. Like an old friend who you don't see very often but when you do it feels like it was yesterday. If that strikes a chord then you might like an old bass.

My 72 J and 72 P are old workhorses with no pretensions to be anything else. They have many knocks, flaws and idiosyncrasies but can still hold their own in most playing situations and have great character and individuality. Playing them always makes me smile!

Many other 'better' basses have come and gone over the years, including new Fenders, but these two are somehow a bit special and are still here.

I wouldn't pay silly money for an old bass but with the recent price hikes of new Fenders and MMs there are plenty out there for similar cash.

[chris_b]

Pre CBS Fenders were generally better than CBS Fenders. That wasn't a myth, but that was in the 60's and 70's.

Now a days I'd say that rose coloured specs and investment potential are distorting the vintage Fender market more than the quality of any instrument.

At the 5 string end of the bass world, I play a Lull and a Lakland and both still blow away any Fender that I've tried.

[dmccombe7]

I've had 2 jazz basses (80 & 2009 Geddy Lee) and a 79 precision. Can't say i've noticed much difference in the jazz basses even though 30 yrs between them.
The only real diff i've noticed is between modern versions of Jazz basses whereby neck feel was very different between the Mex, the Highway, US and MIJ versions to a point i was very surprised. I must admit though that the US version did have an overall feel of better quality but i reckon i put that down to imagination because of the huge diff in price.

Not sure if the Highway ersion might actually have been the MIM version - few yrs ago now.

Maybe stand to be corrected here but did Geddy Lee not fit a new neck on his original Jazz after it was worn beyond repair. ??

Dave

Dave

[OliverBlackman]

Out of the ones I've tried some of the Pre 75 jazz basses are just better than any modern day Fender I have played. I've had discussions with quite a few players on the subject and theres things such as the where and when the woods were resourced to manufacture the basses to be considered.

Obviously the desirability is a factor, I argue that whatever your bass hero plays you will want it and a lot of players use old Fenders. Interestingly Paul Turner told me he paid just over 2k for his '66. What a bargain that seems now!

Forgot to say, what I mean by better is closer to the sound that I want to hear, possibly because the players on the records I listen to use old Fenders. Luckily with Lindy Fralin pickups on the P and an old Tokai Jazz i can get quite close to that anyway.

Edited August 7, 2012 by OliverBlackman

[The Dark Lord]

[quote name='lowdowner' timestamp='1344269290' post='1762017']
Sometimes I wonder whether this site is sponsored by Fender given the amount of adoration heaped on the brand
[/quote]

Really? I'm a big Fender fan and I find that there is too much criticism of Fender on here.

And anyway, you can spend £1000 on a new USA Jazz ...... or between £500 and £800 on one which is 1 to 10 years old in decent nick.

I am unconvinced that you would be better spending an additional £1K or £2K on a bass that is 20 or 30 years old.

Some will say that it has a better, more mature sound. I guess it is more likely that it will have had to have replacement parts for the bits that were broken or worn out - and will not be as reliable as a new one.

When you play it live, in a pub, club or on a big stage, no-one will be able to tell the difference between the sound of an old one or a new one.

Save your cash for other pleasures in life and revel in the ownership of a modern Fender ..... and get a black one.

Edited August 7, 2012 by The Dark Lord

[Lozz196]

[quote name='ikay' timestamp='1344332448' post='1762800']
Vintage basses are a bit like a favourite old pair of jeans. Well worn in, a bit frayed round the edges, maybe past their best but fit like a glove and feel 'just rght'. Like an old friend who you don't see very often but when you do it feels like it was yesterday. If that strikes a chord then you might like an old bass.

My 72 J and 72 P are old workhorses with no pretensions to be anything else. They have many knocks, flaws and idiosyncrasies but can still hold their own in most playing situations and have great character and individuality. Playing them always makes me smile!
[/quote]

That`s exactly my view on my current 77 Precision, and on the 77 Precision I`m picking up on Thurs (which I`ve played before, so feel at home with it). And it`s black

Edited August 7, 2012 by Lozz196

[Spike Vincent]

[quote name='The Dark Lord' timestamp='1344335426' post='1762864']


..... and get a black one.
[/quote]


Of course.

[Muzz]

I think it does depend entirely on the individual bass: my old 78 Jazz was a shocker - 11lbs 13oz, and not a great player, either, but it was mint and all original. The buyer spent a fortune on it, so they must have wanted it (they played it first), but for the life of me I don't know why.

I think it speaks volumes that the highest prices are commanded by the ones which are most 'original', which have the ashtrays, and the original case. Says more 'artefact' than 'instrument' to me...

[rogerstodge]

[quote name='Spike Vincent' timestamp='1344346702' post='1763111']



Of course.
[/quote]Black Ps rock.. Burnel uses one

[steve-soar]

[quote name='Muzz' timestamp='1344347323' post='1763129']
I think it does depend entirely on the individual bass: my old 78 Jazz was a shocker - 11lbs 13oz, and not a great player, either, but it was mint and all original. The buyer spent a fortune on it, so they must have wanted it (they played it first), but for the life of me I don't know why.

I think it speaks volumes that the highest prices are commanded by the ones which are most 'original', which have the ashtrays, and the original case. Says more 'artefact' than 'instrument' to me...
[/quote]Best quote, yet and so true.

[Sibob]

I think old Fenders have very different spec's and feels to them. For example, my '73 Jazz is VERY different to my '03 Jazz.
Yes you can get modern re-issues, but it comes down to that age-old "do you want an approximation, or the real thing?".

For me, I have two 'vintage' basses, and two modern versions, they all get used for different things, with my '71 P getting used most.

Si