High end gear - are we kidding ourselves?

[JTUK]

[quote name='umph' post='833776' date='May 10 2010, 11:22 PM']hiwatts and ampegs were never cheap they were top bollock stuff back in the day to![/quote]


yep, agree..

[umph]

[quote name='BassBunny' post='833747' date='May 10 2010, 10:57 PM']High end gear - are we kidding ourselves?

Alan, probably.
I rehearsed with a Jazz/Fusion band I've just joined in a real flea-pit of a room. Backline provided.......................
Turned out to be an old H&H PA head and a 2x10 Cab that was that battered you couldn't tell what make it was, (although I suspect Peavey)
Sounded absolutely bloody awesome and that was with the cheapest bass in my collection.
Even the other band members made comments.
I felt like trying to "borrow" the rig as there was so much stuff, they would never have noticed. (and then flog all the other basses I have )[/quote]
H&H stuff has always had a bit of a charm to it.

[Musicman20]

Id still like an old school vintage Ampeg combo, the real deal. I wouldnt go back to their modern 8x10s after owning the one, not a chance.

I agree, we are paying for the lightweight/small size. Soon it wont be 'as' expensive though. Im quite excited to see what becomes of the latest cabinets/amps, although I think the Markbass F1 is very very small and thats small enough!

[SisterAbdullahX]

I've toyed with the high end rig idea, and if I had the funds I'd probably get my dream rig, but I own the same HA3500 head, with a 4.5xl, and to me it sounds, well, fine. I got the cab for 130 quid off ebay about 3 years ago and the seller threw in the amp as it didn't work. A 70 quid repair and I've got a perfectly good rig for 200 quid. I can't imagine a rig costing 5 times as much would sound 5 times better and back in the day those Hartkes were the highend rigs! Good enough for Will Lee, Jeff Andrews, Neil Stubenhaus etc. On the downside though....oooooooooh it's heavy!

[quote name='niceguyhomer' post='833463' date='May 10 2010, 07:04 PM']I have a nice rig - it's an Aguilar AG500 head (twin channel jobby), an Aguilar GS112 and a GS112NT. I also use an Aguilar Tone Hammer which also acts as a DI box. It's all connected with OBBM's cables and the whole lot sits on a Gramma Pad.

Last night I did a gig in a huge marquee, big stage, big PA, small audience (it was ferking freezing).

Because of the small numbers, I couldn't bring myself to be arsed to unload my rig so I used the house rig - a slightly battle scarred Hartke HA3500A head and an equally road worn Hartke VX 4x10 and I have to say it sounded absolutely bloody marvelous.

We've had debates about this before - I know but I was kinda flabbergasted and thought to myself...why spend loadsa money when this little rig is plenty good enough?

Thoughts please....[/quote]

[Doddy]

I think the thing is,that you weren't playing through a bad amp. The Hartke 3500 is a really good
head. It may not be super high tech compared to a lot of the new lightweight stuff,but it is a
good sounding,working players amp. That's why there are alot of players using them. They may
be inexpensive compared to some,but it's not 'cheap sh*t'.

[warwickhunt]

It's the law of diminishing returns! Once you get passed a certain point, what you spend then makes less 'real-life' sense. I gig with my Thunderfunk and a pair of Aggie DB112s (cabs used value £550ish) and rehearse with the TF and a tatty Black Widow equipped Peavey 1x15 PA cab (cab used value £30ish). However, would I swap my Thunderfunk/Aggies for a cheapie amp and the 1x15 PA cab... No!

[throwoff]

I think most of it is aspirational.

When I got my first bass and amp I remember seeing a lefty Stingray, Lefty Fender P and 8x10 cab and head in the shop.

I said to myself one day I would have that stuff and thats what made me buy it!

To be honest for the gigs I play my Laney halfstack was plenty loud and being DI'd almost everytime meant my FOH sound was there.
But I needed the 810!

[alanbass1]

I have gone through a fair few backlines in my day and much of it comes down to personal preference and the headroom you can get away with. One of the key things I have noted about 'high end' gear is that they retain there fundamental sound at higher volumes. My TC RH 450/Markbass TA 501 plus Bewrgantino cabs sound great at medium large gigs as not only do the combinations have volume but they maintain the clarity and puch I'm looking for. I have had a number of lower powered amps/combos that sounded really good at rehearsals/small gigs, but when being driven lose the definition and punch I'm looking for.

[chris_b]

The cheapest car you can buy will get you to the same place as the most expensive car, so why do so many people buy BMWs, Mercs and Volvos?

I guess if you can appreciate the difference and the difference is important enough then it's worth the extra.

[JTUK]

[quote name='alanbass1' post='833917' date='May 11 2010, 08:13 AM']I have gone through a fair few backlines in my day and much of it comes down to personal preference and the headroom you can get away with. One of the key things I have noted about 'high end' gear is that they retain there fundamental sound at higher volumes. My TC RH 450/Markbass TA 501 plus Bewrgantino cabs sound great at medium large gigs as not only do the combinations have volume but they maintain the clarity and puch I'm looking for. I have had a number of lower powered amps/combos that sounded really good at rehearsals/small gigs, but when being driven lose the definition and punch I'm looking for.[/quote]


This is the truth, IMV. Any half decent amp can be used to get a good tone...but it starts to fall apart the louder you go, IME.
and when you put very trciky little style nuances in the mix, then they need to come through as well.

This might come out the wrong way..but the easiest sound to contain across systems..is a P-bass grind with a pick. If you used something more subtle...not better, just differnet, then that is where you might struggle.
The system I am using now is alot more consistant across rooms that others I have had...but you can also over complicate the signal chain. Keeping that simple helps, IME.

[EBS_freak]

I must admit, when I was in New York, I popped into 48th and actually met up with Larry Hartke who insisted that I try one of his rigs. Plugged in a standard Fender Jazz... and wow, what a great sound out of the box.

It's on the other end of the spectrum to what I am used to - the amp has a much more vintage vibe as opposed to the hifi EBS stuff I'm used to, but I have to say, for the money, that Hartke rig was really, really good.

I was amazed at how interested in players Larry is... he wanted to know exactly what sort of stuff I played, what gear etc... it would seem he has a lot of time to speak to players and he is very eager on getting people endorsed. He was telling me that the number of phone calls he has per day (following his speak to Larry campaign) has dropped to 35... which is still pretty high in my book. Glad I met the guy... top bloke!

Edited May 11, 2010 by EBS_freak

[Alien]

[quote name='Ian Savage' post='833789' date='May 10 2010, 11:31 PM']At the end of the day ... as long as we're in tune 90% of punters won't give a f*** about our sound.[/quote]

I have my doubts about most of the punters even caring if we're in tune to be honest.

A

[Dood]

[quote name='umph' post='833776' date='May 10 2010, 11:22 PM']hiwatts and ampegs were never cheap they were top bollock stuff back in the day to![/quote]

Well, to be clear,I didn't call them cheap or crap - but in comparison to today's high end gear - in this world of SMT and D-Class, it's hardly , to use Chris_B's analogy , the Mercedes with all the bells and whistles on. That's not to say there is anything wrong with that - I was just trying to make a comparison, t'is all.

[derrenleepoole]

Having high end gear is lovely, but not always essential. At the end of the day, we all work hard to earn money to pay for things, so why not buy high end gear if we can afford it? A cheaper rig may do the job just as well, and very often does, but that's not the point - if you can afford the best then good on you. "I suppose I could buy this Audi/Jag/BMW or... I could buy this rather lovely Aston Martin DB9 instead!!!!" I'm very impressed with then new Marshall MB series of amps BTW.

[51m0n]

Does the amp have enough grunt to deliver the required volume without a major unwanted timbral change?

Can the amp deliver the required eq changes to get 'your' sound.

Does the cab have enough headroom (power handling/excursion limits yada yada) to deliver its core tone + your required eq at that required volume?

Does the room not have any terrible acoustic properties to have to combat?

If the answer to the above is yes in all cases then it'll sound fine in al lprobability.

The Hartke LH500 is proof that an amp can achieve a hugely powerful head that has perfectly reasonable tone at a very reasonable cost. IME it has a harsher top end, is noisier than, and has a less precise eq than my sa450, but the eq is extremely musical, the noise floor is fine for live, so the only issue is that on its own its heavier than my entire rack. It cost a fraction of the price of the contents of my rack.

As for cabs I think that a lot of cabs that are purported to be boutique quality arent really. Bear with me. If a cab has a custom built crossover to the tweeter/mid-lo driver (which should be all be top quality units), has advanced construction techniques based upon real science and a true understanding of the tone goals and power handling needs of real bassists then you are getting there. Very few cabs get the crossover bit right, they are usually off the shelf items, the result is harsh tweeters, upper midrange holes and the requirement for a lot of eq to get around that, not to mention phase and other timing issues between drivers. None of which sound as good as a better designed crossover. One answer is to run single driver cabs of course.

The difference is apparent as soon as you get a really top quality cab running at full chat, the result sounds so much more effortless, so much punchier, and gives the player more confidence and pleasure IME.

I've used the Hartke lower end kit (local music service has a massively heavy Hartke 410 combo), it can sound perfectly reasonable, and gets loud enough without any problems. Back in the day this was top technology, now its nearer the bottom of the pile. It functions fine. Can it compete for tone with my rig? No. Would a punter notice? Depends on how educated they are. The punters notice things they dont like. However at the last gig I played at I got a lot of comments about how great the bass sounded. Through both mine and Plux's rigs. Which was cool, cos it sounded immense

Finally there is the whole issue of reliability. Top quality kit will probably last longer if it is treated the same. In all likelihood it will be treated a great deal better just because of the larger financial outlay.

[Adrenochrome]

In a word - YES!
If you can send a good DI signal to the desk then the rest is just monitoring. I worry far more about my vocals / vocal monitoring (mainly backing vox).

[Protium]

[quote name='niceguyhomer' post='833463' date='May 10 2010, 07:04 PM']Because of the small numbers, I couldn't bring myself to be arsed to unload my rig so I used the house rig - a slightly battle scarred Hartke HA3500A head and an equally road worn Hartke VX 4x10 and I have to say it sounded absolutely bloody marvelous.

Thoughts please....[/quote]

The fact that you played through a Hartke that actually works astounds me.

[peted]

I've gigged a Hartke 3500 for about 8 years now. I love the tone I get out of it when playing in a band. I don't use the graphic EQ or onboard compressor, but just use the two band shelve/boost controls to adjust the sound for the room. On it's own the sound is thin, harsh and the transformer hum and fan noise is very loud, but in a band the tone cuts through and all the noisiness gets lost on stage. The only reason I'm looking to replace it is that it is incredibly heavy to move around. If I get the same sound from a smaller/lighter amp I would be over the moon.

[Al Heeley]

[quote]I have a nice rig - it's an Aguilar AG500 head (twin channel jobby), an Aguilar GS112 and a GS112NT. I also use an Aguilar Tone Hammer which also acts as a DI box. It's all connected with OBBM's cables and the whole lot sits on a Gramma Pad.

Because of the small numbers, I couldn't bring myself to be arsed to unload my rig so I used the house rig - a slightly battle scarred Hartke HA3500A head and an equally road worn Hartke VX 4x10 and I have to say it sounded absolutely bloody marvelous.

We've had debates about this before - I know but I was kinda flabbergasted and thought to myself...why spend loadsa money when this little rig is plenty good enough?[/quote]
Darn - I thought a Hartke set up was pretty high end!
I guess its all relative, if you can afford it and justify it to yourself then it brings you more pleasure, what sounds great to one person sounds less than ideal to another.

[Musicman20]

The LH500 is probably the best value for money amp out at the moment. I couldnt believe how cheap the prices were after I used a friends on tour. Excellent amp and value.

[lemmywinks]

[quote name='Protium' post='834098' date='May 11 2010, 12:04 PM']The fact that you played through a Hartke that actually works astounds me.[/quote]


?

Generally Hartke have a great reputation for reliability. A local shop near me changed from Ashdown to Hartke because of all the returns he was getting and is still stocking them to this day.
I had 2 heads and 4 cabs, all of which got gigged regularly and the only problem was with the VX215 - needed some screws to secure the baffle board

[Bilbo]

I seem to have a much more casual relationship with gear than most. I operate on the basis that, if you have a good professional quality instrument and a good professional quality amp/speaker/combo, if you have nay sort of ability, it will sound fine. You can tweak and fiddle and tweak some more but, IME, the room you are in is the biggest factor in determining the effectiveness of your sound, followed by the number of bodies. Good bass, good amp, good room, good crowd - nirvana. Good bass, good amp, bad room, no people - you will struggle. I have a good bass (Wal) and a good amp (Eden) but, if they were replaced by another good bass and another good amp, I envisage no reall problems in making it work for me.

I think there is too much fussing about things that matter very little and too little attention paid to the things that matter a lot.

Bit like life really......

[umph]

[quote name='dood' post='834013' date='May 11 2010, 10:21 AM']Well, to be clear,I didn't call them cheap or crap - but in comparison to today's high end gear - in this world of SMT and D-Class, it's hardly , to use Chris_B's analogy , the Mercedes with all the bells and whistles on. That's not to say there is anything wrong with that - I was just trying to make a comparison, t'is all.[/quote]

different hourses for different courses. Can't beat valves from audio in my opinion.

[dan670844]

[quote name='niceguyhomer' post='833463' date='May 10 2010, 07:04 PM']I have a nice rig - it's an Aguilar AG500 head (twin channel jobby), an Aguilar GS112 and a GS112NT. I also use an Aguilar Tone Hammer which also acts as a DI box. It's all connected with OBBM's cables and the whole lot sits on a Gramma Pad.

Last night I did a gig in a huge marquee, big stage, big PA, small audience (it was ferking freezing).

Because of the small numbers, I couldn't bring myself to be arsed to unload my rig so I used the house rig - a slightly battle scarred Hartke HA3500A head and an equally road worn Hartke VX 4x10 and I have to say it sounded absolutely bloody marvelous.

We've had debates about this before - I know but I was kinda flabbergasted and thought to myself...why spend loadsa money when this little rig is plenty good enough?

Thoughts please....[/quote]

All the prectice rooms studios I go into I am always pleasantly suprised when I plug into (some) Peavey heads cabs combos esp the early stuff mark v's TNT115 combos etc (not the new ones they are not as good) they sound nice and abused everyday but still keep running. Slightly off topic I am also supprised to see a lot of late 80's 90's trace stuff still about, will it never die!!!

[Mog]

[quote name='dood' post='833689' date='May 10 2010, 09:54 PM']Although, I have to counteract that by suggesting that some of the most unmistakeably great recorded bass tones from the past *have* come from some pretty shabby gear! JJ Burnell and his broken cones, Entwhistle's old cranked Hiwatts and the Ampeg B15 - brilliant for recording but far from hi end

Only joshing of course - at the end of the day, boring as it is - if it sounds great, it is great! -

Another example of great tone on a budget would be the Fender Showman / Alembic F1x / Trace V-type / BBE T-Max / Hartke LH preamps - dead simple, no flashy components - sounds absolutely magnificent![/quote]

True, but if I went into a studio to lay a track with a beat up road worn rig that hummed and hissed every time someone in the next town turned on a light I would be letting myself down and wasting the time and money of my bandmates. If a bare bones tone is required then all you need is a P bass, a Jazz bass and a good DI. I reamp everything I record so I can find the best tone per track. The majority of tracks on our latest was played on my Yamaha, not high end by any means but everything was polished later through preamps/comps worth 10k+.Some of the production costs could have been cut if I used my higher end gear from the start. Modern recording gear is too sensitive. Anything that could cause unwanted noise is a no no.