Making keys and bass work together

[SteveXFR]

We're in need of some advice. 

My daughter is in a band where she plays bass and they also have keys, guitar, vocals and drums. The recordings work really well and everything comes through nicely but live, the bass quite often gets lost and im wondering whether sound techs are struggling to differentiate between the low end of the keys and the bass. Are there any tips to make them work together live reliably and make it easy for the sound tech?

Here's an example of one of their songs for reference. 

 

 

[godathunder]

If the keyboard player cant maintain discipline and stay out of the bass players way then nail a plank across the two lowest octaves of the keyboard

[ian61]

Or super glue his left hand to the floor. Its an age old battle which only the most mature, musically knowledgeable keyboard players will let you win. Good luck.

[Burns-bass]

5 minutes ago, ian61 said:

Or super glue his left hand to the floor. Its an age old battle which only the most mature, musically knowledgeable keyboard players will let you win. Good luck.

 

Agreed, try to stop them playing anything below middle C.

[ezbass]

[Dad3353]

37 minutes ago, SteveXFR said:

... Are there any tips to make them work together live reliably and make it easy for the sound tech? ...

 

Split the keyboard, with the bottom half panned hard left, the upper hard right (well, maybe not as hard as that, but more than 50% at least...). Pan the bass to the middle, obviously. Ideally, of course, this 'sharing' of the frequencies should be done when the song is composed and arranged, so as to have a better sonic field for each instrument, although there's no absolute rules for this, either. Some overlap can be musically valid, it depends on the song.

Kudos for the drumming in the video; more interesting than many 'young' bands these daze. All in all, Good Stuff, worth getting right 'live'.

Hope this helps. 

[itu]

Like @ian61 said. Problem solved. 

 

The lower you go, the further the two instruments/notes must be. Frequency difference gets very small the lower you go. Therefore you should not get closer to the keys than a fifth, but an octave sure is safe. The same applies to chords played ɓy us bassists. 

 

You can make simple calculations by subtracting A4 from F4 (a major third), and then A1 from F1 (try this with your bass!). The difference in the lower end starts to resemble flanger, and the result is really mushy. Besides if there are any issues with tunings of different instruments, the result will be even worse. 

https://www.vibrationdata.com/piano.htm 

 

This is the musical theory reason why only one bassist is needed, and keyboardist should stay far enough. For the same reason there's theoretically space up there for two g-word players, but in practise... 

[Lord Sausage]

I used to be in a band with the best keyboard player of all time.

 

His approach was

 

The right hand is for playing, the left hand is for smoking and drinking.

 

In originals we'd never have to tell him the chords or structure. He just play the right thing and his parts would dance around wherever all the other instruments or voices were.

 

Another regular comment was

 

Doesn't sound like this one needs keys lads!

Edited 16 hours ago by Lord Sausage

[PaulThePlug]

Keys could be a replacement for a rhythm guitar...

But really should only be used for weired far out sounds, or Helicopter noises!

[Skinnyman]

Your daughter could announce that she’s swapping to guitar as the keys player has the bass parts covered. 
The guitarist will have conniptions because of the competition for volume as will the keys player who now has to learn the left hand parts properly.

At the subsequent band meeting, your daughter can graciously agree to stay on bass but ask that the keys player write proper keys parts that don’t occupy the same sonic ground as the bass and kick.

 

Or just sack the keys player

[Judo Chop]

I like the song but yeah that bass is buried isn't it?

[Dan Dare]

A perennial problem, this. We have had similar issues in our band. Our KB player, whilst very able, has relatively little experience of playing in bands. We have had to educate him regarding the difference between playing solo piano/keys pieces, where he can play a melody, chordal accompaniment and bass part simultaneously, and playing in a band context, where clashes with other instruments, notably the bass, are inevitable unless he thins out what he does and treads carefully. The issue is worst when the keyboard sound is similar, tonally and in attack - think electric piano and similar - to the bass. Soft or sustained organ or brass sounds are often less of a problem.

 

There are two ways around it. Either the keys left hand has to mimic the bass part exactly - a bit pointless as it's duplication -  or stay away from the low end altogether. In our case, we have asked the keys player to split the keyboard - say with brass on one end and strings on the other - which enables him to fill out the overall band sound better and avoid the clash with the bass. As we play classic soul, that works well, but it may not be so effective in other styles. And of course, it depends on the keys player's ego allowing him to be directed.

 

Encourage your daughter to stand her ground and insist the keys player stays out from under her feet.

[dave_bass5]

Change the bass tone so it cuts through. it's all about working together. Not all bass players are even capable of holding the low end down so I don’t agree the keyboard player must only use certain parts of the keyboard. Ive seen band with awfully muddy bass tones that ruin the whole mix and you cant hear the music clearly.

If it's a piano part then the bass needs to remember that a piano is played with two hands and work with the keyboard player. I agree that a keyboard player should not be playing the bass part as such, but the low end can be multiple instruments and not just bass. 

 

Band's have had keys and bass in them for years, Look at Elton John/Billy Joel etc for example. All over the keyboard, but does the bass player not get heard? 

 

 

 

 

 

[ian61]

The other solution is buy him a vintage Fender Rhodes and for him to learn to play it right. Pretty much one funky 70's tone and little pure bass.  Best band I ever played in was with keys playing one of those.....Light tones that worked everywhere.

[Happy Jack]

13 hours ago, Dan Dare said:

In our case, we have asked the keys player to split the keyboard - say with brass on one end and strings on the other - which enables him to fill out the overall band sound better and avoid the clash with the bass. As we play classic soul, that works well, but it may not be so effective in other styles. And of course, it depends on the keys player's ego allowing him to be directed.

 

I've been moonlighting as a keyboards player for the last few years and this ^ is bang on the money. Most keys people simply can't help themselves ... they have to be using both hands or it feels like "cheating".

 

I use a 2-tier rig because I hate splits but the principle is the same. My lower keyboard is for my right hand and that plays the main thing ... piano, organ, synth, whatever. My upper keyboard is for my left hand BUT set at +2 octaves so that I'm in the same register as my right hand, and that's for the twiddly bits and flourishes, or for strings/brass.

 

Ego satisfied, plus I'm bringing far more to each song.

[SimonK]

Yes a problem I've also had over the years especially playing in church/gospel bands where the lineup changes weekly. Keyboardists who play a lot on their own get used to playing all the basslines with their left hand so stopping them doing this in a band situation is a challenge. I generally position myself so I can see their left hand, and notice that the "better" keyboardists still do use their left hand but generally only playing root notes on the chord changes (often as octaves with pinky & thumb). Thus said the issue is most acute when they use a traditional piano sound (as in the OP recording). If they use a Fender Rhodes or Hammond or strings patch it's not so bad.

[chris_b]

Ask the sound guys if are having trouble differentiating between bass, bass drum and keys. Their answer might solve everything.

 

My suggestion, take some bass off the bass and add low mids. Take some bass off the keyboards and, while I didn’t hear keys overplaying on the recording, make sure the keys aren't playing bass guitar lines.

 

Yesterday I played at a festival and the FOH was boomy and indistinct. The bass drum drowned out the bass! The sound guys didn't seem to have a clue. If that's what your sound guy is like, get another one.

[itu]

13 hours ago, dave_bass5 said:

Band's have had keys and bass in them for years, Look at Elton John/Billy Joel etc for example. All over the keyboard, but does the bass player not get heard? 

I have played Elton John's songs and they are arranged so professionally, there's space for all instruments. But if a band just plays without thinking, the collisions are very likely. A pro arranger knows the problems in the low end, and is able to avoid them.

 

Music physics is not magic, but some people can arrange music sound like magic. 

[Chris2112]

Ah, it's an age old problem. The problem with keys is that they're so easy to make loud and 'big' without much effort that they can always drown out the rest of the band, never mind just the bass, and because they can be employed with such versatility, keys players who love the sound of their own playing can feel encouraged to play constantly, over everything. 

 

Years ago when I worked at a hotel, we'd regularly have bands coming in to play functions and weddings. One band always used the set up worth their guy on a Nord Lead II (a keyboard I never really liked the sound of). He was invariably devastatingly loud and piercing to the detriment of the rest of the band. I always did wonder if they knew how much of the FOH sound was occupied by that noise. 

 

In this instance, I think some diplomatic conversation would be in order. A keys player can play a bass part but they can never make it sound like a bass guitar even if they have a good patch, in the same way as a drum machine doesn't bring the music to life like an actual drummer would. If the band are happy enough with stiff-sounding keyboard basslines, your daughter might be stuffed but if they band have any sense they'll recognise and address the issue. 

[SimonK]

...was just thinking about why it's more a problem with a traditional piano sound, and listening again to the opening recording I think the attack on the piano sound is much shorter than for the bass (and guitars for that matter) meaning that although they are in time with each other, you hear the piano first on the chords and hence lose the distinctiveness of the bass. It might be that a compressor with a softer/slower attack on the piano could help a bit as well.

[SpondonBassed]

16 hours ago, Lord Sausage said:

He just play the right thing and his parts would dance around wherever all the other instruments or voices were.

 

A versatile fella by the sound of it.  Was he on the register?  Not the keyboard register... the other one.

[knirirr]

Amongst the jazz pianists some I know take pains to practice rootless chord voicings, given that the roots are the bassist's job, as well as playing more sparsely. Playing with these pianists is great.

Others play as if they are playing for themselves and/or a singer, and leave all the roots in, which is less fun and muddies things up.

I recall one at a jam telling me that he hadn't got any charts, but I could just watch his left hand to find out what all the roots of the chords were...

[dave_bass5]

1 hour ago, itu said:

I have played Elton John's songs and they are arranged so professionally, there's space for all instruments. But if a band just plays without thinking, the collisions are very likely. A pro arranger knows the problems in the low end, and is able to avoid them.

 

Music physics is not magic, but some people can arrange music sound like magic. 

Exactly. They CAN both work in the same area. Dont get me wrong, im not arguing that keys dont cause issues in some bands, but a blanket 'don’t let him/her/them/they touch the bottom octave etc is nonsense. 

Are we to limit how high a bass player goes on the fretboard because it's now in guitar range? Everyone needs to work together to get it to gel. Do bands with two guitarists insist one doesn't play anything because its in the same register as the other 😄

As a keys player in one band (admittedly im not very active with my left hand because im not really a piano player) I manage to stay out of the way of the bass. In fact on some songs I play a fill or run that the bass should play but doesn't. 

 

I must admit ive been in a band who had a piano player and yes, he was all over the low end, quite annoying until I sat him down and we worked it out. I made him listen to the bass line and re work his left hand. Never once telling him he shouldn't use it. it sounded great after that.

 

It doesn't take a pro player to figure this out, just common sense. Not something everyone has though (no matter what instrument they play).

[ian61]

If it's actually a serious unresolvable team problem the only solution is a Jazz or PJ and go Jaco honk thru the bridge PU only and crank the mids and vol ....That'll get everyones attention asap.

[Dan Dare]

14 hours ago, dave_bass5 said:

Change the bass tone so it cuts through. it's all about working together. Not all bass players are even capable of holding the low end down so I don’t agree the keyboard player must only use certain parts of the keyboard. Ive seen band with awfully muddy bass tones that ruin the whole mix and you cant hear the music clearly.

If it's a piano part then the bass needs to remember that a piano is played with two hands and work with the keyboard player. I agree that a keyboard player should not be playing the bass part as such, but the low end can be multiple instruments and not just bass. 

 

Band's have had keys and bass in them for years, Look at Elton John/Billy Joel etc for example. All over the keyboard, but does the bass player not get heard?

 

Wrong on several counts, I'm afraid. No amount of changing tone will prevent harmonic clashes - typically caused by keys and bass playing passing notes that are a semitone or tone apart. All that will result from changing the bass tone to cut more is accentuation of those clashes.

 

No keyboard part is set in stone. It shouldn't be for the bass player to "remember that a piano is played with two hands and work with the keyboard player"? The bass has little choice about what to play, especially when playing covers. Obviously, you have to stay in your lane and avoid clashing with other instruments (I rarely if ever venture above the fifth fret). The main issue, as I point out above, is keyboard players playing the same way in a band context as they would solo, filling all the holes and taking up too much sonic real estate.

 

As others state, songs by the likes of Elton and Billy Joel are properly arranged. It isn't by chance that the keys and bass (or keys and other instruments) don't fight one another.