Making keys and bass work together

[SteveXFR]

We're in need of some advice. 

My daughter is in a band where she plays bass and they also have keys, guitar, vocals and drums. The recordings work really well and everything comes through nicely but live, the bass quite often gets lost and im wondering whether sound techs are struggling to differentiate between the low end of the keys and the bass. Are there any tips to make them work together live reliably and make it easy for the sound tech?

Here's an example of one of their songs for reference. 

 

 

[godathunder]

If the keyboard player cant maintain discipline and stay out of the bass players way then nail a plank across the two lowest octaves of the keyboard

[ian61]

Or super glue his left hand to the floor. Its an age old battle which only the most mature, musically knowledgeable keyboard players will let you win. Good luck.

[Burns-bass]

5 minutes ago, ian61 said:

Or super glue his left hand to the floor. Its an age old battle which only the most mature, musically knowledgeable keyboard players will let you win. Good luck.

 

Agreed, try to stop them playing anything below middle C.

[ezbass]

[Dad3353]

37 minutes ago, SteveXFR said:

... Are there any tips to make them work together live reliably and make it easy for the sound tech? ...

 

Split the keyboard, with the bottom half panned hard left, the upper hard right (well, maybe not as hard as that, but more than 50% at least...). Pan the bass to the middle, obviously. Ideally, of course, this 'sharing' of the frequencies should be done when the song is composed and arranged, so as to have a better sonic field for each instrument, although there's no absolute rules for this, either. Some overlap can be musically valid, it depends on the song.

Kudos for the drumming in the video; more interesting than many 'young' bands these daze. All in all, Good Stuff, worth getting right 'live'.

Hope this helps. 

[itu]

Like @ian61 said. Problem solved. 

 

The lower you go, the further the two instruments/notes must be. Frequency difference gets very small the lower you go. Therefore you should not get closer to the keys than a fifth, but an octave sure is safe. The same applies to chords played ɓy us bassists. 

 

You can make simple calculations by subtracting A4 from F4 (a major third), and then A1 from F1 (try this with your bass!). The difference in the lower end starts to resemble flanger, and the result is really mushy. Besides if there are any issues with tunings of different instruments, the result will be even worse. 

https://www.vibrationdata.com/piano.htm 

 

This is the musical theory reason why only one bassist is needed, and keyboardist should stay far enough. For the same reason there's theoretically space up there for two g-word players, but in practise... 

[Lord Sausage]

I used to be in a band with the best keyboard player of all time.

 

He's approach was

 

The right hand is for playing, the left hand is for smoking and drinking.

 

In originals we'd never have to tell him the chords or structure. He just play the right thing and his parts would dance around wherever all the other instruments or voices were.

 

Another regular aspect was

 

Doesn't sound like this one needs keys lads!

Edited 3 hours ago by Lord Sausage

[PaulThePlug]

Keys could be a replacement for a rhythm guitar...

But really should only be used for weired far out sounds, or Helicopter noises!

[Skinnyman]

Your daughter could announce that she’s swapping to guitar as the keys player has the bass parts covered. 
The guitarist will have conniptions because of the competition for volume as will the keys player who now has to learn the left hand parts properly.

At the subsequent band meeting, your daughter can graciously agree to stay on bass but ask that the keys player write proper keys parts that don’t occupy the same sonic ground as the bass and kick.

 

Or just sack the keys player

[Judo Chop]

I like the song but yeah that bass is buried isn't it?

[Dan Dare]

A perennial problem, this. We have had similar issues in our band. Our KB player, whilst very able, has relatively little experience of playing in bands. We have had to educate him regarding the difference between playing solo piano/keys pieces, where he can play a melody, chordal accompaniment and bass part simultaneously, and playing in a band context, where clashes with other instruments, notably the bass, are inevitable unless he thins out what he does and treads carefully. The issue is worst when the keyboard sound is similar, tonally and in attack - think electric piano and similar - to the bass. Soft or sustained organ or brass sounds are often less of a problem.

 

There are two ways around it. Either the keys left hand has to mimic the bass part exactly - a bit pointless as it's duplication -  or stay away from the low end altogether. In our case, we have asked the keys player to split the keyboard - say with brass on one end and strings on the other - which enables him to fill out the overall band sound better and avoid the clash with the bass. As we play classic soul, that works well, but it may not be so effective in other styles. And of course, it depends on the keys player's ego allowing him to be directed.

 

Encourage your daughter to stand her ground and insist the keys player stays out from under her feet.