PA For a "Pub" Band?

[thebrig]

We are a new band that hopes to be gigging sometime soon, our singer has a great voice but hasn't gigged for over 20 years, so he has no PA at the moment.

 

We will be playing pubs mainly, and the odd small club occasionally, with probably just the vocals and kick going through it.

 

None of us have that much knowledge of PA systems, so our question is:

 

How much power do we need, and roughly how much do we need to spend? We will probably go down the second-hand route.

Edited February 4 by thebrig

[Silvia Bluejay]

You're more likely to get a targeted answer from the PA systems forum - I'm moving this thread there. 👍

[BassBunny]

What's the budget? 

[mep]

What's your line up. Is it for just vocals or putting all the instruments through if needed. You'll need monitors too.

[thebrig]

21 minutes ago, mep said:

What's your line up. Is it for just vocals or putting all the instruments through if needed. You'll need monitors too.

Yes I should have been more specific and I will amend the post, 👍 it's Vocals, Drums, Guitars x 2, Bass with probably just all the vocals and maybe kick.

[thebrig]

38 minutes ago, BassBunny said:

What's the budget? 

Probably up to £750 second-hand.

[Jack]

A pair of Alto TS or similar should be about right. 

 

My hard rock band has been using an Alto system for about ten years. 2 TS115a tops and 2 TS118a subs. It's not the RCF that my indie band uses, but it's enough. 

Edited February 4 by Jack

[Beedster]

hi mate, hope all's well, nice to have a new band, result to have a good singer!

 

My tuppence worth. As is the case with amplification generally, it's a good time to buy the (tried & trusted) old, big and heavy PA gear, while in the used market the lightweight/smaller stuff can still be quite pricey. Unless you want to be doing this again in a year I'd also suggest getting more power than you think you need in case the bigger gigs do come in, or in case you find yourself playing in rowdy pubs (you can always turn a powerful PA down after all). 

 

Having said the abkve, we play through a relatively small and lightweight Bose setup which we picked up used for not much more than the budget above (albeit without a mixer) and I'm always amazed by just how much it can pump out.

[Dan Dare]

30 minutes ago, Beedster said:

hi mate, hope all's well, nice to have a new band, result to have a good singer!

 

My tuppence worth. As is the case with amplification generally, it's a good time to buy the (tried & trusted) old, big and heavy PA gear, while in the used market the lightweight/smaller stuff can still be quite pricey. Unless you want to be doing this again in a year I'd also suggest getting more power than you think you need in case the bigger gigs do come in, or in case you find yourself playing in rowdy pubs (you can always turn a powerful PA down after all). 

 

Having said the above, we play through a relatively small and lightweight Bose setup which we picked up used for not much more than the budget above (albeit without a mixer) and I'm always amazed by just how much it can pump out.

 

Good advice above. You don't have a lot of wriggle room with a £750 budget, so used is defo the way to go. The usual powered mixer/mixer and power amp plus two 10 or 12 + horn cabs on stands should get you going. You may get lucky and find something like Beedster's used Bose rig - plenty of people upgrade and sell off smaller gear, so it's very possible. if you do and it's a bit over budget, consider finding the extra money and getting it, because it will stand you in good stead. If you only need PA for vocals and perhaps kick, you can get a small mixer for not much money. Get at least 3 band eq - mid control is very useful for vocals.

 

I'd avoid large - 15 + horn - PA cabs. Bulky, heavy, awkward to transport and store and you need heavy duty stands for safety/stability. If you want more power later on, look at getting a sub to augment your existing stuff.

[thebrig]

Thanks for all the advice so far guys, I'm taking it all onboard.👍

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

2 hours ago, thebrig said:

 with probably just all the vocals and maybe kick.

Rookie mistake, though you see plenty of old timers dong it too. Everything should go into the PA. It's not about volume, it's about dispersion of the mids and highs. Every amp, including yours, has limited midrange and high frequency dispersion. Highpass all the instrument channels at 100 to 125Hz. This means buying a mixer with at least twelve channels. If you try to save money with a six or eight channel mixer you'll either lose money by having to replace it early on or lose functionality by not having enough channels.

[Al Krow]

2 hours ago, Bill Fitzmaurice said:

Rookie mistake, though you see plenty of old timers dong it too. Everything should go into the PA. It's not about volume, it's about dispersion of the mids and highs. Every amp, including yours, has limited midrange and high frequency dispersion. Highpass all the instrument channels at 100 to 125Hz. This means buying a mixer with at least twelve channels. If you try to save money with a six or eight channel mixer you'll either lose money by having to replace it early on or lose functionality by not having enough channels.

 

Have to say it's great to have the approach I've been pushing with our band this past couple of years validated by someone as knowledgeable as you!

 

I would say, though, that some higher-end bass cabs (e.g. Barefaced) deliver excellent dispersion, but with a budget of £750 you're looking at not far off the same price for the bass cab (even second hand these days) as the rest of the PA.

 

@thebrig there's a separate thread on compact mixing desks in this sub forum, but the Soundcraft Signature 12 series is decent value both new and used and has HPF at 100Hz available which Bill mentioned. We use the HPF for all instruments and vox, apart from the kick itself.

Edited February 4 by Al Krow

[Pirellithecat]

Yep - simple and inexpensive ("used") mixer eg Soundcraft Signature (or Behringer??) is probably all you need.  Some have built in FX's which is really handy, and you might want to think about  how many monitor mixes (Aux outs) you need.  (sounds daft, but with In Ear Monitors you soon find you need more than you think!).  However, if you buy a second hand unit you won't really lose anything if you in future decide you need more Aux outs.  
We started out a couple of years back in your situation and have evolved since then.    My biggest "win" was adding a single Sub.  Even in small venues this makes a surprisingly big difference to the sound.   And even in small pubs, as the PA speaker Top sits above it it has minimal effect on space requirements - indeed it helps to stop the PA getting knocked over when things get "lively"!!  I thought 10 inch tops would be ideal in terms of size in small pubs and transport, but if I started again, I'd go straight to 12inch main speakers, as they cope with bigger gigs too. 
Good luck!!

[jezzaboy]

37 minutes ago, Bill Fitzmaurice said:

Rookie mistake, though you see plenty of old timers dong it too. Everything should go into the PA. It's not about volume, it's about dispersion of the mids and highs. Every amp, including yours, has limited midrange and high frequency dispersion. Highpass all the instrument channels at 100 to 125Hz. This means buying a mixer with at least twelve channels. If you try to save money with a six or eight channel mixer you'll either lose money by having to replace it early on or lose functionality by not having enough channels.

And this is exactly where I am at the moment!

 

Bought a Behringer mixer with 4 mic inputs and 4 stereo inputs,  paired with 2 x 12 Behringer tops. But on the last big pub gig we did using their pa with Yamaha 12 inch DBR`s and a desk with loads of inputs, I ended up with 4 x vocals, drum kit and 2 guitars all through the pa and this is the way we are gonna go.

 

So I`m looking at the 12 inch Alto TS 412`s or the pricier but better reviewed Yamaha DBR 12`s and a new mixing desk with plenty of inputs. Then put everything through the pa. It`s going to cost me a few bob but I reckon it`s the way to go. An expensive lesson.

Edited February 4 by jezzaboy

[Al Krow]

15 minutes ago, Pirellithecat said:

Yep - simple and inexpensive ("used") mixer eg Soundcraft Signature (or Behringer??) is probably all you need.  Some have built in FX's which is really handy, and you might want to think about  how many monitor mixes (Aux outs) you need.  (sounds daft, but with In Ear Monitors you soon find you need more than you think!).  However, if you buy a second hand unit you won't really lose anything if you in future decide you need more Aux outs.  
We started out a couple of years back in your situation and have evolved since then.    My biggest "win" was adding a single Sub.  Even in small venues this makes a surprisingly big difference to the sound.   And even in small pubs, as the PA speaker Top sits above it it has minimal effect on space requirements - indeed it helps to stop the PA getting knocked over when things get "lively"!!  I thought 10 inch tops would be ideal in terms of size in small pubs and transport, but if I started again, I'd go straight to 12inch main speakers, as they cope with bigger gigs too. 
Good luck!!

 

Actually that's a good point about built in FX. Singers invariably request and benefit from a little ("room"/ "hall") reverb added to their vox, but also essential you can apply the FX to your chosen channels only. A decent desk with fx will allow you to do this.

[Jack]

1 hour ago, Bill Fitzmaurice said:

Rookie mistake, though you see plenty of old timers dong it too. Everything should go into the PA. It's not about volume, it's about dispersion of the mids and highs. Every amp, including yours, has limited midrange and high frequency dispersion. Highpass all the instrument channels at 100 to 125Hz. This means buying a mixer with at least twelve channels. If you try to save money with a six or eight channel mixer you'll either lose money by having to replace it early on or lose functionality by not having enough channels.

Couldn't agree more, Bill.  However, we all have to start somewhere and £750 is very much just a start.

[Japhet]

We've recently taken to using just 1 of our Mackie Thump FOH speakers for smaller gigs. No power amp required, just a small desk. We have 2 vocals, some kick drum and a smidge of guitar going through it. You can then add another one at your leisure if required. Would be a cheap enough solution for now.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

58 minutes ago, Jack said:

we all have to start somewhere and £750 is very much just a start.

For that price as already mentioned used makes a lot more sense than new. Even if 12 channels pushes the budget envelope the saying 'buy once, cry once' applies.

[Dan Dare]

14 minutes ago, Bill Fitzmaurice said:

For that price as already mentioned used makes a lot more sense than new. Even if 12 channels pushes the budget envelope the saying 'buy once, cry once' applies.

 

I agree with you in principle, Bill, but £750 for a complete PA is a tall order here in the UK. Used is the only option. Any reasonable 12 ch mixer with decent eq (no point in buying something really basic, with just low and high eq - as you say, the mids are very much where the action is) is going to account for getting on for half the budget.

[gazhowe]

2 hours ago, Bill Fitzmaurice said:

Rookie mistake, though you see plenty of old timers dong it too. Everything should go into the PA. It's not about volume, it's about dispersion of the mids and highs. Every amp, including yours, has limited midrange and high frequency dispersion. Highpass all the instrument channels at 100 to 125Hz. This means buying a mixer with at least twelve channels. If you try to save money with a six or eight channel mixer you'll either lose money by having to replace it early on or lose functionality by not having enough channels.

I played pubs for years with everything going through the PA except the bass, as we thought it wasn't necessary for the size of venues.  Even with good quality gear (Bergantino B|Amp with a Bergantino AE410, then NXT212) everyone in the band has agreed there is a noticeable improvement in our FOH sound since I started putting the bass through the PA last year (while retaining my backline). 

 

If budget allows, I'd also second Bill's advice about buying a mixer with enough channels to put everything through it.  I wouldn't like to think about the amount of times I've wasted money on incremental upgrades.

[Norris]

Your budget will probably cover a pair of Mackie SRM-450. Powered speakers are definitely the way to go and we've been using the Mackies for many years now and they have been great. Fabulous for vocals and kick. You'll want a mixing desk, but they are cheap enough.

[jimmyb625]

I think for that sort of budget, you may want to take a look at something like a second hand Yamaha analogue desk. There's one on ebay at the moment for £75, although that's likely to go up.

 

If you want to go for an eq, I'd look at an external one (£100 to £150 for a dual 31 band). A lot of people are getting rid of them now, given that even the lowest cost digital desks have them in-built, so you can pick up some decent ones at a reasonable price.

 

If you're going down the route of active speakers, then Alto TS, or Wharfedale Titan offer good value (again secondhand). There are likely to be some Mackie's in the mix as well.

 

Separate amp and speaker systems may work out to be better, as again a lot of people are getting rid of them in favour of active speakers. There seem to be some very low cost old Peavey cabinets around (I've never used them, so I'm not sure what they're like) or again, there's things like Wharfedale Titans (I have a pair of 12's, which I now use as spare monitors, they're OK, not the best, not the worst).

 

One thing when using the older stuff, apart from the lack of warranty, is weight and bulk, plus possibly in some cases increased setup time. If you've got space, manpower and a willing bunch of folk, thus may not be too much of an issue for you.

[Jack]

See on the other hand I would absolutely try and stay away from passive speakers and separate amp racks. You can pick them up cheaply yes, but that's because nobody really wants them anymore and when you come to upgrade in the future (which you will) then you won't be able to shift them on.

 

A cheapy pair of active tops can be mains now and then wedges or sidefills later when you upgrade the mains.

[Al Krow]

 

If you're on a budget then something like the D Debra 8 Channel could be a decent place to start - they're around £130 new. Not had one myself, but got a thumbs up from one of our in-house PA experts in terms of spec. That would leave £620 for the rest of the PA.

[TimR]

I have a PA I'm selling. 2x15" Peavey Pro speakers and PV1500 amp. Together with Soundcraft Spirit Folio 16.

Reverb and EQ in a mixer flight case.

 

It's pretty heavy in the case. Would be better to split the items.