Clarity - damn those mids

[fleabag]

Its always been said that if you want to be heard in a band, mids is where it's at. 

 

When i dial the mids, i get heard,  but end up with the mid ' growl '     It's not what i always want, but ... to be heard in the mix, its whats needed.

 

I can never get a clean sound by increasing the mids. So whats the answer ?   I don't mean sparkly clean either,  just clean without growl.

[Downunderwonder]

@fleabag If it's growling it is either coming from your bass configuration/attack of the strings, or it's distortion. I can get all kinds of growly with round wound strings if I pluck it like I mean it just so in the breadbasket between bridge and neck.

 

Distortion can come from too much gain applied to a circuit or too much power applied to speakers.

 

Distortion of low mids is very audible in the upper mids.

 

Instead of boosting mids you could cut the bass and treble and up the volume. Less chance of too much gain or power overall.

 

 

[fleabag]

I'm not an attack the strings type, so i would take attacking the strings out of the equation.

 

Its not distortion either, thats a different kettle of  carp altogether.    I wasnt getting any distortion

Maybe your suggestion of dialling back bass and treble is something to try, but i'm not seeing how that will work ?

[nilorius]

Reduce the gain.

[songofthewind]

Do you have a graphic or parametric equaliser of some kind? You could try sweeping the mid frequencies until you get one that give the desired effect. I notice that at home I cut the lower and upper mids, but on a stage I have to boost mids a little.

I do find that too much mids can sound distorted, but I think that is partly to do with my defective hearing.

[ezbass]

Although you don’t attack the strings, perhaps also try lowering the pickup/s just in case they’re being driven at all. I remember when I had a bass with Nordy Big Singles, it’s sounded sweet and lush at home, but when I was playing a gig, I was aware of some grind that I’d not heard before. It seems that playing live increased my attack just enough to drive the pickups that bit more. I didn’t make any changes, as I liked the sound.

[fleabag]

Yes, the Genz 9.2 shuttlemax has a parametric.

 

I'll try a reduction in gain first, as Nilorius has suggested.  Will then experiment with lower and upper mids

[Dad3353]

I'd go for lowering the p/u's a little, too. Easy to do, so easy to judge the outcome. Easy to put back if it doesn't please. Easy, me..? One would think so. 

Edited February 11, 2023 by Dad3353

[Risk101]

Very interesting topic!  I suspect much is also down to what's happening on the sound desk, because the sound engineer can pretty much negate/change anything you do on stage by fiddling around with the EQ on the desk, probably some compression/limiting back there too.

 

I've also always thought that "mids was where it was at" but I had the pleasure of seeing Incognito at Ronnies a week or two ago, and the bass was positively pumping through with seemingly hardly any mids at all - just a nice deep "thump" but cutting through over the kick etc. It reminded me of why I'm a bassist !

 

As an aside, I was playing my new (to me) Spector NS5H2 last weekend, and when we came on at the end for a final song, by mistake I maxxed the neck pickup and mid tone (thinking I was turning both pickups on - damm those vol/vol setups!) and thought "wow, this is very jazz fusion - Jimmy Haslip" before noticing my error and pulling the mids back and the bridge pup on - back to smoothness ! (well as much as you can with a Spector!)

[Bassfinger]

My Sire Precision turned out to be the answer to this dilemma. Punchy mids with sweet clarity which only growls when you really dig in and deliberatrly make it do so. 

 

Playing at home through the Crush 50 or GB10 it was a little disappointing, but in the gig environment those attributes make it come alive and hold its head high in the mix. It almost immediately became my main live plank for this reason.

 

 

Edited February 11, 2023 by Bassfinger
Monumentally bad typifhg

[Rib13Bass]

I am a "flat-as-possible" player and I think its important to view EQ as volume controls for individual frequencies. This is why I prefer to turn up overall volume and subtract frequencies around where i want a boost rather than arbitrarily bump them up. That being said, I do deviate away from this personal rule and will bump certain frequencies up parametrically with a small bell curve (anywhere from +2  to +5 db) for presence. I find 2K is great for most J and PJ basses. On MMs or G&Ls, I sometimes have to slightly bump both 800hz and ~7K. Just play around with what you like but keep the volume approach in mind.

 

Brand spanking new strings and keeping them as fresh as possible is also a great idea. Good luck 

Edited February 11, 2023 by Rib13Bass

[chris_b]

If you want to be heard in the mix get a better cab. . . . get 2 of them.

 

Get an amp with good definition and enough headroom.

[Woodwind]

4 hours ago, fleabag said:

Its always been said that if you want to be heard in a band, mids is where it's at. 

 

When i dial the mids, i get heard,  but end up with the mid ' growl '     It's not what i always want, but ... to be heard in the mix, its whats needed.

 

I can never get a clean sound by increasing the mids. So whats the answer ?   I don't mean sparkly clean either,  just clean without growl.

 

The/your problem is not your eq per se.

If all your bandmates stopped playing you'd be able to hear yourself regardless of how your eq is set.

you'd still be able to hear your self if you turned your volume down by half.

In fact you'd still hear yourself if you turned off your amp altogether.

 

My guess, based on having no idea what your band is, is that your guitarist(s) have waaaaay too much low end in their sound.

 

if they took this out, (good luck suggesting this) you would have so much more bandwidth to fill the low end yourself and fit in and around the drums much more satisfyingly and as a result your drummer will have a nicer time and may well be able to play quieter or with greater dynamic swing.

 

 

I've been in this exact situation in bands before.

Having had to boost mid eq (regardless of the bass I was using) and still only just being able to hear my attack.

Upon inspecting the guitarists amp the bass knob was always maxed, producing a huge amount of low end that in reality I couldn't "compete" with.

 

Have a chat with your guitarist about what they can do for their eq FOR THE BAND (a lot of guitarists struggle with this) and see kf you can sculpt a band sound everyone is happy with.

 

Good luck!

[skidder652003]

tell the guitarist to turn the f@ck down...

[Risk101]

38 minutes ago, Woodwind said:

 

The/your problem is not your eq per se.

If all your bandmates stopped playing you'd be able to hear yourself regardless of how your eq is set.

you'd still be able to hear your self if you turned your volume down by half.

In fact you'd still hear yourself if you turned off your amp altogether.

 

My guess, based on having no idea what your band is, is that your guitarist(s) have waaaaay too much low end in their sound.

 

if they took this out, (good luck suggesting this) you would have so much more bandwidth to fill the low end yourself and fit in and around the drums much more satisfyingly and as a result your drummer will have a nicer time and may well be able to play quieter or with greater dynamic swing.

 

 

I've been in this exact situation in bands before.

Having had to boost mid eq (regardless of the bass I was using) and still only just being able to hear my attack.

Upon inspecting the guitarists amp the bass knob was always maxed, producing a huge amount of low end that in reality I couldn't "compete" with.

 

Have a chat with your guitarist about what they can do for their eq FOR THE BAND (a lot of guitarists struggle with this) and see kf you can sculpt a band sound everyone is happy with.

 

Good luck!

This is so true and the same goes for keys players with a heavy left hand - super frustrating and always a tricky subject to broach with any other band members!!!

 

Agree with earlier post too about cabs but so much stuff is IEM now so you’re totally reliant on the person on the desk who may or may not like a “bass rich” sound !!

[Lozz196]

I suppose because I use Precisions, which have an abundance of mids, I have the opposite problem and have to cut mine so that the bass doesn’t just put too far in the mix.

[Elfrasho]

For me the key is use eq sparingly. Toovmuch of any frequency does more harm than good.  Mids are key but that doesn't necessarily mean automatically boosting them. You might find your amp and bass  provide sufficient mids with the eq flat.. that's what I do most of the time!

[greentext]

1 hour ago, Woodwind said:

I've been in this exact situation in bands before.

Having had to boost mid eq (regardless of the bass I was using) and still only just being able to hear my attack.

Upon inspecting the guitarists amp the bass knob was always maxed, producing a huge amount of low end that in reality I couldn't "compete" with.

Ive had this chat with many people about a good tone on its own, verse a good tone in a band setting. I think guitar players are overly greed when they have a playing on there own, which tbh why not it sounds very full. But you cant bring that into a band setting as it just clouds the whole band sound. I think you can roll pretty much most the bass out of a guitar sound, it just adds mud tbh (in the sort of bands I play in anyway, rock and metal) but thats just me.

 

[fleabag]

It may come as a shock     but our 2 gitwrists are not the usual  raucous  overdriven mad axemen

 

The stuff we play doesnt require that .. but there's some good advice here that i will take to next rehearsal. 

[Dan Dare]

It's worth checking how the bass sounds from out front (use a long lead or wireless). It can be surprising how different what you hear standing next to the rig is  from what those out in the room hear, especially when the whole band is playing. I often find I need a stage sound that is too mid-prominent and even growly/honky for it to sit right in the room. This assumes, of course, that you are relying on your back line for the room sound, rather than putting the bass in the PA and using your rig as an onstage monitor.

[fleabag]

Yah i got a Line 6 relay G75, so no problem walking out front and having a listen.

 

We'll be checking  bass into PA on Monday , no cab, just a monitor.

[Lozz196]

36 minutes ago, Dan Dare said:

It's worth checking how the bass sounds from out front (use a long lead or wireless). It can be surprising how different what you hear standing next to the rig is  from what those out in the room hear, especially when the whole band is playing. I often find I need a stage sound that is too mid-prominent and even growly/honky for it to sit right in the room. This assumes, of course, that you are relying on your back line for the room sound, rather than putting the bass in the PA and using your rig as an onstage monitor.

I’ve found that as well, get a sound I’m not that keen on onstage seems to translate out front to what I want.

[Downunderwonder]

2 hours ago, fleabag said:

It may come as a shock     but our 2 gitwrists are not the usual  raucous  overdriven mad axemen

 

The stuff we play doesnt require that .. but there's some good advice here that i will take to next rehearsal. 

The bassiest guitar in the whole world is an acoustic.

 

I was in a duo on DB with an acoustic guitarist. One day we're setting up and it just won't mesh no matter how I tweak the EQ.

 

Guitar boy had been doing a solo lunch gig with the low cut turned off. Sorted in seconds. DB sounds like a DB and guitar sounds like a guitar.

 

Btw. Saturating your pickups comes under too much gain as well as attack of strings. Something you are doing is making it growl one way or the other.

 

On the other hand, all that isn't pure synth sine waves is the bass guitar stings, pickup, amp and cab doing their things and you could say it's all growl. So perhaps you need to be more specific.

 

From what you're saying it sounds like it's not overly loud so most likely growling from the bass and you're amping that. I think you would have found a sweeter gain master balance already.

 

I can get flat wound strings to growl but

it's a lot more work. If taking some bass out of the guitars doesn't work and lowering your pickups doesn't work that's maybe all that's left.

[BassAdder60]

My solution as a simple one is play with a pick and turn the mids back down 

 

Using a pick brings out an abundance of mids and especially on some basses such as a PBass 

 

I find that my finger tone is too polite, dull and woolly sounding in the context of the band ( rock with guitarist playing 50w valve heads through 4x12 cab) 

Play with a pick ( the right pick ) and turn down your bass tone to mellow it a tad and there you have it clear decent sounding bass. 
If I could achieve that with fingers I would ( more connection ) but it’s not possible for me and my digits so a pick is my tone solution in the band 

As a guide I’m playing with a 100w tube head and we are a loud band without PA support for most gigs 

You may find you can get better EQ control and lose the growl using a pick ( try a 1mm Tortex or Nylon pick )

Edited February 11, 2023 by BassAdder60

[casapete]

5 hours ago, Dan Dare said:

It's worth checking how the bass sounds from out front (use a long lead or wireless). It can be surprising how different what you hear standing next to the rig is  from what those out in the room hear, especially when the whole band is playing. I often find I need a stage sound that is too mid-prominent and even growly/honky for it to sit right in the room. This assumes, of course, that you are relying on your back line for the room sound, rather than putting the bass in the PA and using your rig as an onstage monitor.

I find exactly the same ‘dilemma’, and not just when there isn’t a feed to the PA being used.

At sound check when playing solo for the FOH guy, I often don’t like my onstage sound much,

yet when placed with the rest of the band the sound becomes somehow ‘right’ and allows

me to hear it effectively.