On dodgy deals, bad people and BC Feedback

[Beedster]

Guys
I posted this elsewhere but though it warranted it's own moment in the limelight!

After about 5 years of various ebay and BC transactions without serious problem I've had several problematic transactions in the last few months, all of which related to dishonest or, at the very least, not sufficiently conscientious, sellers. I have returned two basses for being fake vintage 'Fenders' (seller's responses along the lines "well the guy who sold it to me said it was original"/"it says Fender on the headstock, how was I supposed to know", and by the way, one of these is still on ebay listed at over £2000), a neck for being simply unplayable (the owner had inflicted a DIY refret on an otherwise finely crafted vintage Fender neck but 'forgot' to mention this in the listing), and several smaller items that simply didn't work or were not what the seller described (Allen_Baker's Warwick 3.2 being a good example). There's two issues to me, firstly, the fact that the seller is less than honest in the listing, which can perhaps be the result of genuine error or naivety, and secondly the seller's response to any such issue. A failing in the first is forgivable, a failing in the second not. Most of the sellers above accepted the items back and refunded me, so failed on the first but passed on the second. Allen_Baker may have passed on the first (OK the amp [i]might[/i] have been working when he sent it) but failed on the second. Jake failed on both. It's not even face-to-face that ensures the deal, it's the degree to which the seller has demonstrated previously that s/he is trustworthy. The reason I was extremely (perhaps too) hard on Allen_Baker last week is that I don't think we use the feedback section well enough and should probably be prepared to be a little more honest in doing so. I know, from PMs on various issues, that deals on BC have gone bad, in some cases seriously so, but I don't see any negative feedback on the site about those deals? Let's face it, unlike ebay, at least a seller on here can respond and a decent public dialogue can ensue. Most people on here are reasonable, and if most of the facts emerge during any such dialogue, I imagine a level of consensus will determine the rights or wrongs of any situation (trial by jury if you like?).
So guys, let's see the feedback section being used.
Chris

[birdy]

Agree with this Chris. My eyes have been opened in the last month or so on here and I will now be a lot more wary who I sell to or buy from. I think I 'know' who the definate good guys (pretty much all the regulars) are on the forum and would sell/buy from them without a second thought but from now on if I don't know you I will be very careful.

One thing with regards to feedback is that its hard to find - or is it just me? Say I leave a thread titled Birdys feedback unless I include Birdy within the thread then no one can find it by using the search function? This is why you maybe get 4 or 5 threads for the same person.

One solution might be to alphabetise (is that a word?) the forum in a similar manner to the review section possibly?

Steve

[The Burpster]

[quote name='Beedster' post='349456' date='Dec 9 2008, 10:34 AM']Guys
I posted this elsewhere but though it warranted it's own moment in the limelight!

After about 5 years of various ebay and BC transactions without serious problem I've had several problematic transactions in the last few months, all of which related to dishonest or, at the very least, not sufficiently conscientious, sellers. I have returned two basses for being fake vintage 'Fenders' (seller's responses along the lines "well the guy who sold it to me said it was original"/"it says Fender on the headstock, how was I supposed to know", and by the way, one of these is still on ebay listed at over £2000), a neck for being simply unplayable (the owner had inflicted a DIY refret on an otherwise finely crafted vintage Fender neck but 'forgot' to mention this in the listing), and several smaller items that simply didn't work or were not what the seller described (Allen_Baker's Warwick 3.2 being a good example). There's two issues to me, firstly, the fact that the seller is less than honest in the listing, which can perhaps be the result of genuine error or naivety, and secondly the seller's response to any such issue. A failing in the first is forgivable, a failing in the second not. Most of the sellers above accepted the items back and refunded me, so failed on the first but passed on the second. Allen_Baker may have passed on the first (OK the amp [i]might[/i] have been working when he sent it) but failed on the second. Jake failed on both. It's not even face-to-face that ensures the deal, it's the degree to which the seller has demonstrated previously that s/he is trustworthy. The reason I was extremely (perhaps too) hard on Allen_Baker last week is that I don't think we use the feedback section well enough and should probably be prepared to be a little more honest in doing so. I know, from PMs on various issues, that deals on BC have gone bad, in some cases seriously so, but I don't see any negative feedback on the site about those deals? Let's face it, unlike ebay, at least a seller on here can respond and a decent public dialogue can ensue. Most people on here are reasonable, and if most of the facts emerge during any such dialogue, I imagine a level of consensus will determine the rights or wrongs of any situation (trial by jury if you like?).
So guys, let's see the feedback section being used.
Chris[/quote]

Agreed Chris, but I have 2 issues from your post.....

1. Only buy and sell to nice folks then that wont happen....

2. Don't keep swapping your gear......




PS you never did answer my PM about fretlessessess

[cheddatom]

One solution would be to add a feedback section to personal profiles. When people receive their item or whatever, they can go onto the seller's profile and just post about the transaction. Then if you are thinking of buying from someone it's as easy as clicking on thier name to find out their feedback.

[OldGit]

[quote name='cheddatom' post='349474' date='Dec 9 2008, 10:53 AM']One solution would be to add a feedback section to personal profiles. When people receive their item or whatever, they can go onto the seller's profile and just post about the transaction. Then if you are thinking of buying from someone it's as easy as clicking on thier name to find out their feedback.[/quote]

+1 much easier

[GreeneKing]

I've had one deal that for me went a bit 'sour'. I was the seller (well a trade actually) and the recipient a few days later highlighted a damaged neck which was duly photographed and I have no doubt that it was damaged (by adjusting the trussrod I suspect). The question is when it was damaged. The photo showed 'dirt' in the crack supposedly evidencing it was an old issue but the photos I took of the bass clearly showed no crack at all 2 days before I personally exchanged basses. So the origin of the 'dirt' and the crack was to me very suspect. I ended up buying a new neck from the US and posting it to the other guy. My point is fault's not allways clear and I don't want to drag the whole thing into the public domain with names and counter allegations.

Generally it's been great but as the site gets bigger it's a statistical reality that eventually you'll bump into someone with a different idea of 'right and wrong' to yourself.

I've also had two people commit to buy basses recently and then back out. In one case I was awaiting on the Paypal notification of payment before sending the packaged bass and pm'd the guy to see 'what gives'. He told me he'd forgotten to tell me he'd changed his mind! In the other case I held one for months waiting for the seller to be able to afford it and then they told me they'd bought a much more expensive bass and the deal was off!

Good idea re feedback Nick! - I now have a signature

Edited December 9, 2008 by GreeneKing

[Old Horse Murphy]

I've added the link to my Feedback to my signature. What's more is I fell damned proud of myself for managing to do it.

Hooray for me!

[ped]

[quote name='cheddatom' post='349474' date='Dec 9 2008, 10:53 AM']One solution would be to add a feedback section to personal profiles. When people receive their item or whatever, they can go onto the seller's profile and just post about the transaction. Then if you are thinking of buying from someone it's as easy as clicking on thier name to find out their feedback.[/quote]

+1 - I hoped this would be easy to incorporate but I think there was some difficulty. I will chase it up though as it seems the best idea.

ped

[neepheid]

I have had no problems with stuff acquired via BC. However, I have heard of/seen some situations where people have been a bit economical with the truth when it comes to item condition.

I hope I don't come across as blowing my own trumpet here but when I sell something on here (or eBay), I take photos, full disclosure with respect to condition (the motivational factor here is "how would I feel if I received this?"), accurately weigh and quote postage, post the thing when I say I will and keep the buyer informed of progress or changes of circumstances. Why do I do all this? BECAUSE IT'S THE RIGHT THING TO DO.

People who fail to live up to these (IMO) reasonable expectations really hack me off.

[MythSte]

[quote name='Old Horse Murphy' post='349495' date='Dec 9 2008, 11:04 AM']I've added the link to my Feedback to my signature. What's more is I fell damned proud of myself for managing to do it.

Hooray for me![/quote]

As a solutions kinda guy, this seems like a cracking idea.

[waynepunkdude]

[quote name='Old Horse Murphy' post='349495' date='Dec 9 2008, 11:04 AM']I've added the link to my Feedback to my signature. What's more is I fell damned proud of myself for managing to do it.

Hooray for me![/quote]


Maybe we should all do that, saves the mods having to organise it.

[cheddatom]

[quote name='ped' post='349502' date='Dec 9 2008, 11:09 AM']+1 - I hoped this would be easy to incorporate but I think there was some difficulty. I will chase it up though as it seems the best idea.

ped[/quote]

Cool......Or if you could automatically generate a feedback thread for each member and automatically generate a link to it in the respective sigs?

I don't know, but I think there should be some sort of compulsary space for people to add feedback about every member. If the member doesn't like the feedback he can take it up with the mods.


It kind of relies on everyone to leave feedback as well. I've bought quite a few items from people on here, and always say "link me to your feedback thread if you have one" and I think all but one have just ignored this question or just said "nah I don't have one, don't worry". Similarly, no-one has left any feedback for me as a buyer.

[Clarky]

[quote name='waynepunkdude' post='349508' date='Dec 9 2008, 11:09 AM']Maybe we should all do that, saves the mods having to organise it.[/quote]
Agreed - I just did it, took about one minute

[thebeat]

I have rule: 'If they can't spell...i don't sell...or swap for that matter' people who can spell very rarely rip you off

[bremen]

[quote name='waynepunkdude' post='349508' date='Dec 9 2008, 11:09 AM']Maybe we should all do that, saves the mods having to organise it.[/quote]

Anyone that's done a deal with me and hasn't left feedback, could you do it here (points to link in sig)? And I'll do the same for you.

I've had 100% good experiences so far.

[cheddatom]

[quote name='thebeat' post='349524' date='Dec 9 2008, 11:18 AM']I have rule: 'If they can't spell...i don't sell...or swap for that matter' people who can spell very rarely rip you off [/quote]

If I said that i'd be getting flamed by the dyslexic membership!

[Happy Jack]

[quote name='thebeat' post='349524' date='Dec 9 2008, 11:18 AM']I have rule: 'If they can't spell...i don't sell...or swap for that matter' people who can spell very rarely rip you off [/quote]

+1

It could seem shallow to judge people on such a seemingly trivial matter, but my experiences to date (including over 250 eBay transactions) is that there is a clear enough correlation for me to suggest - in a suitably caring and nonconfrontational manner - that [i][b][u]SOME[/i][/b][/u] people who can't be bothered to spell correctly or use language properly can also be expected to be equally careless on moral issues.

Please note the subtle emphasis intended to suggest that I recognise that there are plenty of exceptions to such a sweeping generalisation.

Despite which, please excuse me while I go and pull on my flame-proof overalls ...

[artisan]

[quote name='Old Horse Murphy' post='349495' date='Dec 9 2008, 12:04 PM']I've added the link to my Feedback to my signature. What's more is I fell damned proud of myself for managing to do it.

Hooray for me![/quote]

cracking idea
if i can only find my feedback thread

[waynepunkdude]

[quote name='artisan' post='349583' date='Dec 9 2008, 12:09 PM']cracking idea
if i can only find my feedback thread[/quote]
[url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=18500&hl=artisan"]http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=...&hl=artisan[/url]

[Johngh]

I've never had any bother from anyone on Basschat. But I do have some general golden rules. 1 is I never buy anything if I can't try it. 2 No bass gear I buy is sent to me through the post, I always collect, or if needed meet up with the seller half way between their home and mine, it only normally costs a little more in fuel that the post cost would be anyway, and I get my new purchase NOW !. 3 I don't buy ANYTHING from e bay over £50, too many rip off tales. Also if I'm selling anything I will offer to meet halfway with the buyer so that he can see the goods. All this restricts me a bit in terms of what I can buy / sell, but it works for me.

[Hamster]

[quote name='Old Horse Murphy' post='349495' date='Dec 9 2008, 11:04 AM']I've added the link to my Feedback to my signature. What's more is I fell damned proud of myself for managing to do it.

Hooray for me![/quote]


That's funny, when I click on your feedback link, I just get pictures of naked rugby players? - What have you been up to in your spare time!


[url="http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_W0poprgG0kY/SCmg2KiIqTI/AAAAAAAAADs/HYgvK-wpy20/s320/rugby_players_naked.jpg"]http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=4154&hl=horse[/url]

[artisan]

[quote name='waynepunkdude' post='349591' date='Dec 9 2008, 02:13 PM'][url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=18500&hl=artisan"]http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=...&hl=artisan[/url][/quote]


cheers nice.

it's a shame none of my happy buyers could find it

[WalMan]

[quote name='Old Horse Murphy' post='349495' date='Dec 9 2008, 11:04 AM']I've added the link to my Feedback to my signature. What's more is I fell damned proud of myself for managing to do it.

Hooray for me![/quote]
Done, though I am not quite as prolific in the Buy/Sell department as the venerable Beedster

[ped]

Adding the thread to your sig is a great idea, thanks. We clearly need a better system though and I will sort it out. I don't want to have a system where people can take up bad feedback with mods though as we are not responsible for any deals done on BC, just read the guidelines and be very careful!

Cheers
ped

[Born 2B Mild]

I've bought eight items on BC and sold five. Out of those 13 transactions, no one has asked for, or given, feedback.However, I do occasionally cite some of those that I have traded with as 'referees'.

So, patently it is not a system that has been adopted fully here. This suggests to me that this is partly a system thing and partly a policy thing.

Maybe a tick box needs adding to each trading thread so that regularly automatic sweeps can PM the OP to tick 'feedback received' or 'trade not completed'?