deepbass5 Posted May 30, 2018 Share Posted May 30, 2018 Is it me, or is this moronic messing about with the tune justified. For the uninitiated you play through a jazz standard and at some point someone will suggest playing fours meaning the combo will play the first four bars then the drummer will be free to improvise alone over the next four bars, this will be reaped every four bars until the number is no longer recognisable. I added that last bit but you have probably gathered I'm not a fan of this What is your take Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Browning Posted May 30, 2018 Share Posted May 30, 2018 Rhythm sections don't play solos EVER!!!!! 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
musicbassman Posted May 30, 2018 Share Posted May 30, 2018 Musical masturbation. Please do this in private, not on stage. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leftybassman392 Posted May 30, 2018 Share Posted May 30, 2018 If they're good enough and are happy to have the spotlight, then why not? I've had the good fortune to work with some immensely talented drummers over the years, players whose talent deserves more than approving nods from the rest of the band. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowdown Posted May 30, 2018 Share Posted May 30, 2018 5 minutes ago, leftybassman392 said: If they're good enough and are happy to have the spotlight, then why not? I've had the good fortune to work with some immensely talented drummers over the years, players whose talent deserves more than approving nods from the rest of the band. Absolutely.... It doesn't have to be limited to just the Drummer either. Trading fours and picking out, or picking up on the previous players four bar phrases (on the fly), requires good ear skills. Mind you, I have seen and heard some spectacular train crashes because of people getting lost, or coming in on three...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burns-bass Posted May 30, 2018 Share Posted May 30, 2018 Like all jazz it can sound great if done properly, and horrendous if done poorly! When you see some real players engaged in the exchange of ideas it can be mesmerising. Also, when you see great players they will only solo when they have something to 'say', rather than assuming they should solo on every tune. I reckon one drum solo a set is about right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burns-bass Posted May 30, 2018 Share Posted May 30, 2018 I reckon one bass solo is about right per set is right too (unless the player is top quality!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonard Smalls Posted May 30, 2018 Share Posted May 30, 2018 Isn't the whole point of jazz to riff off each other? Not to play everything exactly by rote, the same every time, but to see where a tune can go? Otherwise it becomes like some classical concerts, where the front row is populated by people following the score and tutting if there's even the slightest hint of "Interpretation" rather than just enjoying the music... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burns-bass Posted May 30, 2018 Share Posted May 30, 2018 8 minutes ago, Leonard Smalls said: Isn't the whole point of jazz to riff off each other? Not to play everything exactly by rote, the same every time, but to see where a tune can go? Otherwise it becomes like some classical concerts, where the front row is populated by people following the score and tutting if there's even the slightest hint of "Interpretation" rather than just enjoying the music... This is the definition of jazz, I agree. I think the problem is that an aimless drum solo (or any aimless solo) doesn't push the music forward. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonard Smalls Posted May 30, 2018 Share Posted May 30, 2018 Indeed... But if you can't play jazz, I'd say don't even attempt it! However, I'm a fine one to talk; in one of our songs we have a longish improvised section where all 3 of us do a bar each which is supposed to build on and echo the previous bar. If we haven't got decent on-stage sound this can turn into a nightmare best forgotten... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MoJo Posted May 30, 2018 Share Posted May 30, 2018 22 minutes ago, Burns-bass said: I reckon one bass solo is about right per set is right too (unless the player is top quality!) Not in my book. One bass solo is one too many as far as I'm concerned. Same goes for drum solos Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad3353 Posted May 30, 2018 Share Posted May 30, 2018 36 minutes ago, Leonard Smalls said: Isn't the whole point of jazz to riff off each other? Not to play everything exactly by rote, the same every time, but to see where a tune can go?... 22 minutes ago, Leonard Smalls said: Indeed... But if you can't play jazz, I'd say don't even attempt it!... This ^^ There is an inherent risk in every experiment: the risk of failure. Playing jazz is the acceptance of that risk, with the reward of a supreme buzz when/if the experiment 'works' and it sounds great. It's difficult (not impossible, but difficult...) to get that much buzz from playing any other way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bassace Posted May 30, 2018 Share Posted May 30, 2018 A lot of my work these days is with jazz trios and quartets. Without bass and drums interjections, even with a quartet, the two ‘front’ instruments will sound a bit samey for a whole gig. So the bass will have a goodly number of solos, if only to add a third voice to the tune. Ditto the drummer with fours. Indeed you can do other tricks, rounders, arguments, walking bass behind a single instrument, all the give the punters a bit of variety and, let’s be honest, give a bit of light relief to the players. its all very well to say rhythm sections/bassists/ drummers shouldn’t play solos - and I’m not totally without sympathy with this point of view - but necessity demands otherwise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_b Posted May 30, 2018 Share Posted May 30, 2018 From Charlie Parker to Herbie Hancock the Jazz greats all trade 4's. Isn't it another arrangement device to feature players "doing battle" in Jazz? The great Blues guitarists (T Bone Walker, Clarence Brown etc) used to "battle" and I believe it still happens in Rap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toneknob Posted May 30, 2018 Share Posted May 30, 2018 It's one arrow in a quiver of Things To Do With The Form. If you can do it well, it'll be good; less so if you fluff it. A bit like things in many other types of music. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Blank Posted May 30, 2018 Share Posted May 30, 2018 I want to take down the entire Wikipedia entry for Jazz and replace it with... 4 hours ago, deepbass5 said: Is it me, or is this moronic messing about with the tune justified. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mykesbass Posted May 30, 2018 Share Posted May 30, 2018 I can't believe people can have such closed minds towards any musical form...except Country 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cato Posted May 30, 2018 Share Posted May 30, 2018 4 hours ago, leftybassman392 said: If they're good enough and are happy to have the spotlight, then why not? I've had the good fortune to work with some immensely talented drummers over the years, players whose talent deserves more than approving nods from the rest of the band. There's no drummer in the world talented enough to pull off any drum solo lasting more than 30 seconds without irritating the vast majority of their audience. The last extended drum solo I saw was at a Robert Glasper gig in Brum by an obviously gifted drummer in front of an audience of jazz lovers. By about a minute in he'd emptied around the half the hall, people were queuing in the lobby for the bar and the toilets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drTStingray Posted May 30, 2018 Share Posted May 30, 2018 I also have no problem with this format - however I believe one has to be very careful with drummers - they can be a strange beast - I play in a band where we once had an excellent and very technical drummer who has moved to better things - the last number in the set has always included a drum solo but whereas the previous drummer did exactly that - and then changed to a groove to allow the guitarist to do an extended solo after and return eventually to the original song our replacement has a different approach - he plays a drum solo - usually too long - but after it plays a groove which no one recognises and then proceeds to get so busy that no one can actually understand what he's doing - oh and at a ludicrous volume - so much so that at the last gig the guitarist took his guitar off and laid it on the floor with feedback emanating and walked off to leave the drummer to disappear up his own derrière with volume and increasingly busy fills - and me literally not having a clue what to play. Effectively making the drum solo last for the whole song.......slightly different from the fours mentioned by the OP but seemingly a similar end result with a drum fest. i now understand why Ginger Baker and Jack Bruce allegedly used to come to blows on occasion. So don't give a drummer fours unless he's a musician rather than a latter day John Bonhamesque but of the shed building fraternity with a large ego (small continent size)!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jus Lukin Posted May 30, 2018 Share Posted May 30, 2018 (edited) - Edited March 1, 2022 by Jus Lukin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad3353 Posted May 30, 2018 Share Posted May 30, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Cato said: There's no drummer in the world talented enough to pull off any drum solo lasting more than 30 seconds without irritating the vast majority of their audience... Hmm... Some audiences go specifically to see some drummers do their solo stuff. Maybe you're not moving in those circles, but they're out there, and many are darned good, too. Joe Morello's 'Take Five' solo spot, as just one example..? Edited May 30, 2018 by Dad3353 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cato Posted May 30, 2018 Share Posted May 30, 2018 (edited) 13 minutes ago, Dad3353 said: Hmm... Some audiences go specifically to see some drummers do their solo stuff. I'm not one to judge people for their preferences or hobbies. As long as everyone involved is a consenting adult and nobody gets permanently maimed then I wish them all the best in their choice of lifestyle. Edited May 30, 2018 by Cato 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowdown Posted May 30, 2018 Share Posted May 30, 2018 (edited) Buddy Rich made a career out of drum solos in excess of 30 seconds with packed audiences there to see it. John Bonham solos were loved. Dave Weckl, Steve Gadd are two of a long line of known drummers that keep the audience happy with solos. What about those big, Hollywood, televised 'Drum offs' ? Krupa vs Rich. Love it, or hate it...One thing is for sure, where there is a Drum solo, there is an audience..... What was it that Thomas Beecham said? "The English might not like music, but they absolutely love the noise it makes..." He must have been talking about drum solos. Edited May 30, 2018 by lowdown Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jus Lukin Posted May 30, 2018 Share Posted May 30, 2018 (edited) - Edited February 27, 2022 by Jus Lukin 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deepbass5 Posted May 30, 2018 Author Share Posted May 30, 2018 5 hours ago, Jus Lukin said: And be glad of it, because we all know what happen when drums stop... Ya the fat lady sings Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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