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Interesting FRFR story..

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33 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

Variation on the theme of the OP: dep guitarist in one of my covers bands is using a Helix and wants a transparent monitor / speaker to put it through rather than getting a guitar amp as he feels that an amp will colour what's coming out of his Helix (all the other guitarists I'm working with have gone for the Roland Blues Cube) . He's insisting on 10" rather than 8" (probably correctly?), though. Anyway, we're off to PMT Romford tomorrow to check out Yammy, QSC and RCFs; I may try out the odd bass guitar while I'm up there...

Sounds to me like your guitarist has good sense. I reckon you may both be pleasantly surprised with the results!

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If only my band would all go through the PA. But to be fair we sound pretty well balanced every time from the audience's perspective. But still the stage sound is what you would expect so I've got myself IEM's to lower the volume and hear everyone.

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On 13/04/2018 at 15:46, CameronJ said:

Sounds to me like your guitarist has good sense. I reckon you may both be pleasantly surprised with the results!

Alto Active PA Speakers

Guitarist went for an Alto TS210 which delivers 550W, weighs in at one hand carry of 22lbs and costs a very competitive £210.

https://www.pmtonline.co.uk/alto-truesonic-210-active-pa-speaker

Went up against a Yammy 10" and 8"; the Yammy's were marginally better (but also heavier) but the difference was relatively small and certainly in terms of value for money the Alto knocked the competition out of the park. Pleasant surprise for me as it's not a brand that I'm familiar with but he'd heard quite a lot of good things about on whatever forums guitarists hang out on :) 

We put both bass and guitar into the Alto and the the Yammys via his Helix and they handled both pretty easily; I'd not want to just go through a 1x10 myself on a 5 string, for sure, and we weren't generally playing at rehearsal / gig volume in the store - although he did turn the vol up on just his guitar to make sure the Alto had enough head room and it certainly seemed to have.

So if you're after something lightweight, capable and on a budget, it's worth considering the Alto range which goes from 8" to 15" with even the 15" only weighing 33 lbs and costing a very modest £269 new.

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have done rehearsals and small jams with the alto 212’s before; there are outstanding for their price. 

43423BBA-2AF5-4974-A358-065CEC60027D.jpeg

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@ordep - you're also a Ibanez and Zoom B3 man so I can't really fault your taste :) 

Have you gigged through an Alto 212 (other than small jams)? Did it have sufficient headroom? You'd kinda hope it would with 550W output, but the quality of its cabs and speaker drivers are obviously also going to play a major part.

But just how much quality Alto can deliver with a RRP of £259 for what is effectively a substitute bass rig (when folk typically spend several times that amount for an amp and cab or even a decent combo)?

If it comes close to the quality and headroom of a decent bass rig then, as you say, it is ridiculously good value and the age of the full range flat response speaker will be truly upon us.

Edited by Al Krow

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The key specification in that very nice TS210 cab is the bass driver voice coil. It's two inches in diameter, which means it should realistically be rated at about 200W.

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Ok, so what if i wanted to go FRFR with no PA support?
What kind of spec would i need?
At the minute, we play weddings of 200-300 in halls.
We aren't very loud. I use a Markbass LM2 into a TKS S112 and volume has never been an issue.
I know most people on here are using them as monitors, can they be used as the monitor and the main rig?

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1 hour ago, FuNkShUi said:

Ok, so what if i wanted to go FRFR with no PA support?
What kind of spec would i need?
At the minute, we play weddings of 200-300 in halls.
We aren't very loud. I use a Markbass LM2 into a TKS S112 and volume has never been an issue.
I know most people on here are using them as monitors, can they be used as the monitor and the main rig?

I would be pretty confident in using my RCF as backline. I keep the level fairly low but it shakes the whole house as soon as I tickle the volume knob!

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23 minutes ago, stingrayPete1977 said:

If the pa is vocals only then you wouldn't need much of a backline anyway. 

The PA is Vocals, Guitar and Keys.
 

 

5 minutes ago, CameronJ said:

I would be pretty confident in using my RCF as backline. I keep the level fairly low but it shakes the whole house as soon as I tickle the volume knob!

That's good to know. Which model have you gone for. I know you've probably posted about it, but i don't know how far back that is, and i'm a lazy derrière 

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It's in my sig ;) RCF HD32a. They ain't cheap, but I got a good deal from Northwing of this parish. Saying that, even the brand new price isn't any more than you'd realistically pay for a good quality amp head and cab.

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27 minutes ago, CameronJ said:

It's in my sig ;) RCF HD32a. They ain't cheap, but I got a good deal from Northwing of this parish. Saying that, even the brand new price isn't any more than you'd realistically pay for a good quality amp head and cab.

Seems that it will go plenty loud enough if needed?!!? 

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2 minutes ago, FuNkShUi said:

Seems that it will go plenty loud enough if needed?!!? 

I’m actually waiting for an afternoon when nobody’s home so I can really give it some juice! Put it this way - it’s replaced a Tecamp Puma 900 feeding an 8ohm TKS 1126 and I have zero regrets. If anything I wish I’d gone this route sooner.

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13 minutes ago, CameronJ said:

I’m actually waiting for an afternoon when nobody’s home so I can really give it some juice! Put it this way - it’s replaced a Tecamp Puma 900 feeding an 8ohm TKS 1126 and I have zero regrets. If anything I wish I’d gone this route sooner.

Yeh, but if you'd had a 4ohm TKS 1126 (is that even an option? If not then a 4ohm BF BB2 or VK210) with your Puma 900, then you'd have been talking / shaking / rattling / rolling and it would have been a fair bit lighter as a bass rig...

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38 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

Yeh, but if you'd had a 4ohm TKS 1126 (is that even an option? If not then a 4ohm BF BB2 or VK210) with your Puma 900, then you'd have been talking / shaking / rattling / rolling and it would have been a fair bit lighter as a bass rig...

But nowhere near as good for keys, vocals or general playback of music/videos, which is what I also use my RCF for. It’s several rigs in one and I never have to worry about whether anything will sound good through it or not.

 

Below is a friendly rig comparison:

My RCF HD32a (new price ~£869) weighs 18.8kg and will beautifully reproduce whatever I could ever want to put through it. Oh and it can be tilted back for better audibility in tight spaces.

Your beloved Markbass AC121 combo (new price ~£945) weighs 16.3kg and pretty much only sounds good with bass...

An Eich T900 (new version of the Tecamp - new price £789 and weighing 1.7kg) paired with a Barefaced Big Baby 2 (new price £749 and weighing 13kg) costs a total of £1,538 and weighs a total of 14.7kg

An Eich T900 with a Vanderkley MNT112* (new price £675 and weighing 16kg) would cost a total of £1,464 and weigh a total of 17.7kg

*I’ve used Vanderkley’s higher power-rated 112 cab rather than any of their 210s in an effort to maintain an apples to apples comparison in terms of driver size vs the other options here.

 

I’ll happily give up a few kilos for the immeasurable increase in versatility from my current rig.

Edited by CameronJ

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@CameronJ the difference between you and me bro is that I'm in a couple of bands and just play bass*; whereas you also play keys and have awesome vocals. But what I lack in versatility I make up for in kilos (mostly around my mid riff), so I think it kinda all balances out in the end... 

*ok technically also rhythm guitar, recorder and drum machine (badly)

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PS you're wrong about the Markbass combo (and I suspect about bass rigs in general) only sounding good with bass. 

Plenty of guitarists actually really like bass rigs. And the Markbass combo has been the Krow 'party' rig for playlists on many occasions and sounded great!

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1 minute ago, Al Krow said:

PS you're wrong about the Markbass combo (and I suspect about bass rigs in general) only sounding good with bass. 

Plenty of guitarists actually really like bass rigs. And the Markbass combo has been the Krow 'party' rig for playlists on many occasions and sounded great!

Admittedly it was a generalisation but the point being that it’s been designed to sound good with bass first and foremost. Sure, you can put other stuff through it but spend 30 seconds A/Bing it with a decent FRFR speaker and the baked-in colouring of the Markbass will become swiftly apparent.

My old Tecamp and TKS rig was, on paper, one of the more transparent combinations as far as bass amplification goes and yet even that couldn’t hold a candle to my RCF for clarity of sound from non-bass guitar sources.

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20 hours ago, Al Krow said:

@ordep - you're also a Ibanez and Zoom B3 man so I can't really fault your taste :) 

Have you gigged through an Alto 212 (other than small jams)? Did it have sufficient headroom? You'd kinda hope it would with 550W output, but the quality of its cabs and speaker drivers are obviously also going to play a major part.

But just how much quality Alto can deliver with a RRP of £259 for what is effectively a substitute bass rig (when folk typically spend several times that amount for an amp and cab or even a decent combo)?

If it comes close to the quality and headroom of a decent bass rig then, as you say, it is ridiculously good value and the age of the full range flat response speaker will be truly upon us.

 

11 hours ago, billynoband said:

Is there one woofer and one speaker in these cabs? The description page is a bit confusing 208 210 212 215?

There's limitations if you go this route. Have a look at the specs, this is the 12" version https://www.altoproaudio.com/downloads/Alto-Professional-TS212-Spec-Sheet.pdf

you'll see it's a fairly typical 350w into the bass driver and produces 124dB and actually goes quite low at -3db @ 56Hz. You'll also notice only the HF unit is Neo. Given the weight of the whole speaker this means the magnet on the bass speaker isn't that big. If it's 124db at 350W then it's just under 98dB/W sensitivity which is quite high/efficient. That all suggests to me that the compromise is that Xmax/excursion is limited which means high powered bass isn't on offer, The speakers are electronically protected so I'd imagine they won't get damaged just that the bass will be limited if you push them too hard. Having said that the limiting is on the input stages.... These speakers are a real bargain but you can't get everything for nothing so limited bass is the compromise. Are they usable? Yes if you don't try using them with a drummer with anything other than a light touch. However if you had two or more of them you are probably in business with an extra 6dB to play with. Alternatively if your PA is good you'll hear the deep bass from there and you can roll off what is coming through your monitors which will spare the Altos a little.

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4 hours ago, FuNkShUi said:

Ok, so what if i wanted to go FRFR with no PA support?
What kind of spec would i need?
At the minute, we play weddings of 200-300 in halls.
We aren't very loud. I use a Markbass LM2 into a TKS S112 and volume has never been an issue.
I know most people on here are using them as monitors, can they be used as the monitor and the main rig?

If you are successfully using a 112 then any quality 12" PA speaker will probably work for you. If you are playing decent wedding gigs then really you shouldn't be cutting corners with your gear. Go for RCF, QSC or top range Yamaha and you are likely to get something that will handle the bass you need and prove reliable. If you can afford it then it's always a good idea to think about using the same speakers as monitors that you use for PA. That means if something goes down mid gig you can do a straight swap and just go on playing in most cases. 

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1 hour ago, Phil Starr said:

 

There's limitations if you go this route. Have a look at the specs, this is the 12" version https://www.altoproaudio.com/downloads/Alto-Professional-TS212-Spec-Sheet.pdf

you'll see it's a fairly typical 350w into the bass driver and produces 124dB and actually goes quite low at -3db @ 56Hz. You'll also notice only the HF unit is Neo. Given the weight of the whole speaker this means the magnet on the bass speaker isn't that big. If it's 124db at 350W then it's just under 98dB/W sensitivity which is quite high/efficient. That all suggests to me that the compromise is that Xmax/excursion is limited which means high powered bass isn't on offer, The speakers are electronically protected so I'd imagine they won't get damaged just that the bass will be limited if you push them too hard. Having said that the limiting is on the input stages.... These speakers are a real bargain but you can't get everything for nothing so limited bass is the compromise. Are they usable? Yes if you don't try using them with a drummer with anything other than a light touch. However if you had two or more of them you are probably in business with an extra 6dB to play with. Alternatively if your PA is good you'll hear the deep bass from there and you can roll off what is coming through your monitors which will spare the Altos a little.

there were a set of alto powered drivers that used a eminence 3012 for a while. 

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It’s nice to see my thread running long term ;)

Welcome to any new FRFR converts as well. 

My K10.2 is still number 1 stage choice.. 

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I'm still really happy with my FRFR powered speaker (a modest RCF HD 10-A).  I sold my Genz Benz head and Barefaced cabs. The only thing I've changed about my setup is an EQ pedal, which I've added post-DI.  I use it mainly for its volume control - it makes it slightly easier to adjust my on-stage volume without having to find the powered speaker's gain control (which is located on the back panel).

DSCF1888.JPG

Edited by jrixn1
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