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Interesting FRFR story..

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21 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

Fair play! But how many are bass players?

That's insignificant. You queried how many FRFR cabs are being sold. "Oh please. LOTS of sales of FRFR gear. Really? Let's not get carried away. "

The answer is to that original question is a lot. A lot of modeller users are using FRFR cabs as guitar solutions, some for bass and some for both as a guitar and bass solution.

Edited by EBS_freak

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34 minutes ago, LukeFRC said:

When did this thread get so angry?

Nah! All educational banter. Cam and I are good buddies. He's just taller, better looking and a better singer than me. However, despite that I'm in two much better bands than he's in! :P And  I have a massive amount of respect for the other guys I've been exchanging views with, although I might not always have had the time when crafting a quick reply to be showing it!

35 minutes ago, CameronJ said:

I’d describe it more as robust debate than anger. Though I can see how it could be interpreted as anger at times...

+1 Let (polite) free speech reign.

Besides @JSB is clearly a big fan of my Markbass combo so maybe I can sell my DG M900 and Vanderkley cab and spend the money on an FRFR :) 

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34 minutes ago, EBS_freak said:

That's insignificant. You queried how many FRFR cabs are being sold. "Oh please. LOTS of sales of FRFR gear. Really? Let's not get carried away. "

The answer is to that original question is a lot. A lot of modeller users are using FRFR cabs as guitar solutions, some for bass and some for both as a guitar and bass solution.

Yes I appreciate there is a pedantic streak in this thread that needs to be pandered to :D, but I did (honest guv!) mean (and had assumed was implicit from the forum I'm posting on - I think it's called 'Basschat' not 'PA chat' or 'guitar users with Line6 Helix chat' last time I looked?) how many FRFR sales have been made to bass players who are using them as backline / replacement for the bass amp and cabs - which is where the current mini recent discussion on this thread all started, I believe?

I think you and I are agreed that this number is insignificant?

Edited by Al Krow

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Are people in danger of getting a bit mixed up here? 

For modelling purposes etc isnt it the actual amp that adds most of the colour? So its that you want to keep unvoiced as possible, as its that that goes to the desk and speaker of your choice etc. The physical speaker set up to me anyway is less of a concern, especially when thats just for backline or monotoring.

If now gone 'hybrid' and pre amp into power amp into barefaced.

That way whenever i choose to change preamps etc i get an accurate representation to the desk and my cab of choice.

Its also massively expandable with adding or changing to different cabs, and the whole set up is very light. 1000w rms amp is only 4kg. Cab is 10kg.

I can even take the di out of a less powered bass amp and put that through the power amp if needed. For monsterous tone.

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Al Krow - I don't think that it would be any surprise to state that modelling with FRFR is still a minority portion of the market - I, along with many others, believe that the flexibility in a modelling solution, complete with a FRFR cab (that on the whole are far superior in at least a component view to a bass specific equivalent), should be at least on a consideration list when down to people choosing gear. If offers great flexibility - Your valve tone at any volume. Many amp tones and fx available in one package. The ability to run silent stages without compromising tone out front (or in ears if you use them)... the list goes on. For me, I think it would be foolish for anybody not to at least test drive one. As to how many bass players are running FRFR cabs - well, in all honesty, I wouldn't know... I don't really care. Even if that number is insignificant, whats wrong with being one of those people in the know - and making your life easier? I just know that it works well... and has worked out for everybody else that I know that has done the switch. What you cannot argue though, is that pound coin for pound coin, the technology and performance of a modern PA cab far outstrips those "bass" specific marketed cabs. Call this a thread of education and enlightenment that you can do things differently.

At the end of the day, we are musicians that use tools to create our music. Does it matter if we use a cab or a specifically marketed "bass cab" in our rig? No. We shouldn't be confined to the marketing blurb. Anthony Jackson and Mike Gordon have been doing the powered PA thing for years with Meyer cabs - they certainly don't care that they aren't "bass cabs" and I don't believe they have suffered because of it (although their roadies may have some bad backs now).

There's those people that will swear blind that analogue desks are better than digital desks too. But as soon as you have guys on digital desks, it won't surprise you, that these same guys are very reluctant to go back to analogue. There may be the odd dinosaur that doesn't get on with digital - but the advantages that digital offers far, far, far outweighs analogue. You can do with a shoeboxed sized mixer that just over ten years ago, would have taken a transit or two full of gear to achieve. Similarly, PA cabs have come on so much now... a single 12 or 15 - they don't do just do just vocals... they can do the whole band now... and at considerable volume. Why would you not want to embrace that technology?

 

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29 minutes ago, la bam said:

Are people in danger of getting a bit mixed up here? 

For modelling purposes etc isnt it the actual amp that adds most of the colour? So its that you want to keep unvoiced as possible, as its that that goes to the desk and speaker of your choice etc. The physical speaker set up to me anyway is less of a concern, especially when thats just for backline or monotoring.

If now gone 'hybrid' and pre amp into power amp into barefaced.

That way whenever i choose to change preamps etc i get an accurate representation to the desk and my cab of choice.

Its also massively expandable with adding or changing to different cabs, and the whole set up is very light. 1000w rms amp is only 4kg. Cab is 10kg.

I can even take the di out of a less powered bass amp and put that through the power amp if needed. For monsterous tone.

Bass cabs... and especially guitar cabs colour the sound considerably. You have to consider the sound coming out of the modeller to be a recording of your instrument as it would appear on the CD. You wouldn't plug your CD player into guitar amp and expect it to sound as good as a hifi. This is the same... the FRFR takes away any further colouring. If you do want the colouring of the cab, you run a model of the amp without any speaker emulation or IR and let the non FRFR cab add that colouring back in.

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42 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

 

Besides @JSB is clearly a big fan of my Markbass combo so maybe I can sell my DG M900 and Vanderkley cab and spend the money on an FRFR :) 

Thanks for the offer, unfortunately MB amps aren't travelling well across different power standards.

Being FRFR is the key selling point of this unit, why would you get rid of it...to get a PA? 

I have to ask... This isn't a cheap combo, if you were not going for FRFR why did you go with this one?

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3 minutes ago, JSB said:

Thanks for the offer, unfortunately MB amps aren't travelling well across different power standards.

Being FRFR is the key selling point of this unit, why would you get rid of it...to get a PA? 

I have to ask... This isn't a cheap combo, if you were not going for FRFR why did you go with this one?

Lost in translation (again!). I need to improve my English. I meant:

  • Keep the Markbass Combo.
  • Sell the VK210 and DG M900 and buy an FRFR - but actually that was said in jest.

@EBS_freak there are too many folk on this thread and whom I respect who are into FRFR, for me not to give it a try / not to be open to the concept.

And if the 735A was 35lbs and not 48 lbs I might even be tempted to have jumped. But portability is as much a key criteria for me. If you delve back into the murky depths of this thread back to page 6 you'll have noted that I was actually very open to going FRFR, but what ruled it out for me was that there was no benefit in terms of weight. Carting two 48lbs PA speakers two and from gigs as one of the oldest members of my bands and for some reason also its roadie (I guess that's the designated job of the bass player!) didn't fill me with any glee...

On 30/11/2017 at 16:17, Al Krow said:

This is the crux of what I am / would be carrying:

2 x RCF 310As plus my amp & cab = 95lbs

2 x 735As = 96lbs

Whether the guitarist wants to bring / use his own amp is irrelevant to me (the 310As can handle guitars anyway if he does) in terms of what I'm taking to / from gigs.

So I think I've just managed to talk myself out of ditching my amp and cab for gigs, and will be sticking with our current set up. Well that will save a few £quid anyway!

 

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I wouldn't call a cab FRFR that crosses a 12" driver over to a compression driver at 3.5kHz (according to the spec). As soon as you step to the side, you'll lose all your upper mids.

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I remember you posting your thread... but even back then I still thought you had got it all wrong.

This is what you should be running -

1x Helix LT = 12.5 lbs

1x inears = circa 0.07lbs

1x inear amp = circa 1lbs

2x735a (front of house) = 96lbs.

Your ears will thank you for it for starters. Less spill on stage, your band will sound better for it. Less space taken up transporting kit. What's not to like?

- and if you dep with another band, you take the Helix and a single 735 for a traditional rig.

Edited by EBS_freak

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3 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

And if the 735A was 35lbs and not 48 lbs I might even be tempted to have jumped. But portability is as much a key criteria for me. If you delve back into the murky depths of this thread back to page 6 you'll have noted that I was actually very open to going FRFR, but what ruled it out for me was that there was no benefit in terms of weight. Carting two 48lbs PA speakers two and from gigs as one of the oldest members of my bands and for some reason also its roadie (I guess that's the designated job of the bass player!) didn't fill me with any glee...

For what it’s worth (and I think it does hold worth) most PA speakers have 2 or 3 sturdy and well placed handles which, coupled with the shape of the speaker itself can make even a heavier PA speaker easier to carry over distance and through doorways etc. than a traditional “box” bass cab which weighs less but whose shape and handle placement make for an awkward load.

Weight, while important, is not the only factor to consider here.

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25 minutes ago, EBS_freak said:

Bass cabs... and especially guitar cabs colour the sound considerably. You have to consider the sound coming out of the modeller to be a recording of your instrument as it would appear on the CD. You wouldn't plug your CD player into guitar amp and expect it to sound as good as a hifi. This is the same... the FRFR takes away any further colouring. If you do want the colouring of the cab, you run a model of the amp without any speaker emulation or IR and let the non FRFR cab add that colouring back in.

Yes, but your speaker is only for you to listen to.

The signal now coming out of the pa is:

Amp Modeller - speaker emulation - through real speakers of your pa. So its coloured speaker wise twice. ..... i think?! (starting to confuse myself now!) :)

 

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1 minute ago, la bam said:

Yes, but your speaker is only for you to listen to.

The signal now coming out of the pa is:

Amp Modeller - speaker emulation - through real speakers of your pa. So its coloured speaker wise twice. ..... i think?! (starting to confuse myself now!) :)

 

No - you DI out from your amp modeller into the PA. The PA speakers should be transparent, exactly the same as your on stage FRFR speaker that you are using for a monitor. The whole point of PA and FRFR speakers (effectively the same thing) is that all the colouration is done by the modeller and not the speakers.

Edited by EBS_freak

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3 minutes ago, CameronJ said:

For what it’s worth (and I think it does hold worth) most PA speakers have 2 or 3 sturdy and well placed handles which, coupled with the shape of the speaker itself can make even a heavier PA speaker easier to carry over distance and through doorways etc. than a traditional “box” bass cab which weighs less but whose shape and handle placement make for an awkward load.

Weight, while important, is not the only factor to consider here.

Indeed - carrying a dumb bell is easier than carrying a similar weight javelin.

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Please bear in mind, guys, that we don't all have 10kW PAs with sound engineers. Some of us gig mainly in places where our bass rig is not only our monitor but also our audience sound. The monitors in my band are mainly so that we can hear the singer.l

 

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17 minutes ago, stevie said:

I wouldn't call a cab FRFR that crosses a 12" driver over to a compression driver at 3.5kHz (according to the spec). As soon as you step to the side, you'll lose all your upper mids.

Interesting!  Where should the crossover be ideally?

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1 minute ago, stevie said:

Please bear in mind, guys, that we don't all have 10kW PAs with sound engineers. Some of us gig mainly in places where our bass rig is not only our monitor but also our audience sound. The monitors in my band are mainly so that we can hear the singer.l

 

Get rid of them then, get some in ears and put your money into foh speakers.

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37 minutes ago, EBS_freak said:

No - you DI out from your amp modeller into the PA. The PA speakers should be transparent, exactly the same as your on stage FRFR speaker that you are using for a monitor. The whole point of PA and FRFR speakers (effectively the same thing) is that all the colouration is done by the modeller and not the speakers.

Hmmmm, im not sold on this idea yet :)

Now youre likely putting your bass sound into a 12" top and 15/18" bass pa set up. And subs are definitely going to be tuned specifically for bass.

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2 minutes ago, la bam said:

Hmmmm, im not sold on this idea yet :)

Now youre likely putting your bass sound into a 12" top and 15/18" bass pa set up. And subs are definitely going to be tuned specifically for bass.

But when you are using the subs, you are using a crossover that takes up the bass duties away from the tops... actually making your tops more potent because it hasn't got to struggle with the harder to amplify bass frequencies. For bass guitar, subs are actually generally too subby for bass guitar in most smaller venues!

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1 hour ago, la bam said:

Are people in danger of getting a bit mixed up here? 

For modelling purposes etc isnt it the actual amp that adds most of the colour? So its that you want to keep unvoiced as possible, as its that that goes to the desk and speaker of your choice etc. The physical speaker set up to me anyway is less of a concern, especially when thats just for backline or monotoring.

If now gone 'hybrid' and pre amp into power amp into barefaced.

That way whenever i choose to change preamps etc i get an accurate representation to the desk and my cab of choice.

Its also massively expandable with adding or changing to different cabs, and the whole set up is very light. 1000w rms amp is only 4kg. Cab is 10kg.

I can even take the di out of a less powered bass amp and put that through the power amp if needed. For monsterous tone.

Bass cabs add a massive amount of colour to your sound. Try running your amp into different cabs and you'll find it sounds different each time. Cabs from different manufacturers will sound different to each other even though they might have the same number and size of drivers inside. Which is why I'm always surprised when people ask for cab recommendations based on driver size and numbers, because IME these are the least important factors in how a cab is going to sound.

And guitar cabs take this to a completely different level. Unless you are a fan of super-clean guitar sounds the whole point of a guitar speaker is to colour the sound in a way that guitarists have come to find pleasing through familiarity. 

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41 minutes ago, stevie said:

Please bear in mind, guys, that we don't all have 10kW PAs with sound engineers. Some of us gig mainly in places where our bass rig is not only our monitor but also our audience sound. The monitors in my band are mainly so that we can hear the singer.l

 

Certainly on the originals circuit there are very few venues where you are reliant on your bass rig having to provide the FoH bass sound. My experience of using the RCF745 is that the dispersion characteristic are far superior to any of my previous bass rigs. That means I can run it quieter on stage, and not have any of the band ask for extra bass guitar in the monitors in order for them to get a balanced sound.

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2 minutes ago, BigRedX said:

Certainly on the originals circuit there are very few venues where you are reliant on your bass rig having to provide the FoH bass sound. My experience of using the RCF745 is that the dispersion characteristic are far superior to any of my previous bass rigs. That means I can run it quieter on stage, and not have any of the band ask for extra bass guitar in the monitors in order for them to get a balanced sound.

Has anybody commented, especially on the originals scene, why are you using a "proper" amp? How did your band take to it?

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3 hours ago, Al Krow said:

But you have the option of a lot of fantastic gear second hand. When was the last time an RCF 735A came up second hand?

We picked up our 735A cabs for £900 the pair in mint condition, that included quality covers and a pair of pricey winch stands (£115 each online), we also got our matching Art subs for just over £500 for the pair, again with quality covers. Surprisingly we found them on a PA selling page rather than a bass forum, they tend to be more popular there! I dare say you'll find quite a few for sale on PA/DJ forums and probably on metal guitar forums too.

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5 hours ago, Al Krow said:

Certainly comparable in quality and usefulness for me as a bass player. 

Markbass AC 121 Lite Combo. It's 500W rather than a than 700W, but kinda irrelevant as I've never needed it turned up more than half, so the extra 200W is superfluous headroom for me. 

Doubt we will be able to do this test any time soon, but for me the test is a simple one: half way through a 2 hour set, swap with the combo for a 735A and see if anyone notices?

It's my basic 'would anyone give two hoots, if you did that?' test. 

Where do you draw the line, if someone doesn't gig then a decent practice amp is fine for them. 

Comparing apples with pears :)

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