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Interesting FRFR story..

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2 hours ago, EBS_freak said:

Just to be a pedant... micing up the a Barefaced rig would give you a "studio"-esque take on the sound that comes from a Barefaced rig. You have the inherent sound of the mic and the fact that it is taking just one point of the cab and the sound that is produced rather than the sound of a cab as a whole.

But yeah, would agree with the rest.

Yeah but at least I'd have the desk to sort it out, lol:hi:

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5 minutes ago, stingrayPete1977 said:

Yeah but at least I'd have the desk to sort it out, lol:hi:

Indeed! More dsp in a box!

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1 hour ago, Jus Lukin said:

The same could be said of the Barefaced though- they seem as flat as any passive PA cab I've experienced.

That's all perfectly reasonable and as I said, I don't doubt that the RCFs are great. The specs of my systems are great too, and suit me down to the ground- I don't think RCF want to beat me up because of it!

I just think it is worth a mention that FRFR is great if one needs or wants Full Range Flat Response. It's not just plain old better by default for all- using amp sims for a percentage of my gigs, I'm actively going out of my way to stop the system as a whole providing FRFR, because it sounds and feels more appropriate in context. I guess my point is that FRFR can be great, but may or may not be a worthwhile endeavour depending on need. RCF wedge-able monitors are great, but other options do exist!

As I said before I wouldn't suggest anyone changes a perfectly good rig for one, I haven't either, I've got a Genz 212T for bigger backline gigs but I'd advise against a rig to anyone upgrading from a practice amp or requiring their first gig ready amp. 

The dinosaurs will keep buying a bass rig as big as they can because it's ingrained. 

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RCF 735A = 48 lbs

Not light.

£875.

Not cheap.

700W RMS, more than adequate.

 

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27 minutes ago, EBS_freak said:

My smack all others into the ground wasn't directed at Barefaced or any particular manufacturer to be honest - I wasn't even thinking about Pete's comments either than I wrote it.

Yeah, I think I may have been joining a group joke which didn't actually exist! xD

27 minutes ago, EBS_freak said:

As opposed to brands being mentioned in threads - it's natural - thats what makes the stuff we write about more real world. People like stuff. People don't like stuff. Some people can justify why they rate stuff... others just rate it because they own it and very protective if what they have bought is then brought into question on a forum. I think that's a fair observation isn't it?

Absolutely- I couldn't tell you what I'm using without mentioning the brands! We all have our preferences and uses, but that's why I'm never keen to see any one thing become the holy grail. Although I did in fact end up using them, Barefaced themselves were hoisted up in the same way. Regardless of intended use, why would one use anything else?! OK so it turns out they did actually do exactly what I needed, but I'm aware there can be some fairly militant support for them at times. So much so that I hesitate every time I'm about to type the name on Basschat!

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1 minute ago, Al Krow said:

RCF 735A = 48 lbs

Not light.

£875.

Not cheap.

700W RMS, more than adequate.

 

How much cost and combined weight is a comparable amp and cabinet? 

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4 minutes ago, stingrayPete1977 said:

As I said before I wouldn't suggest anyone changes a perfectly good rig for one, I haven't either, I've got a Genz 212T for bigger backline gigs but I'd advise against a rig to anyone upgrading from a practice amp or requiring their first gig ready amp. 

The dinosaurs will keep buying a bass rig as big as they can because it's ingrained. 

And the mammals will get a D class head and an excellent lightweight cab and look after their backs, and no one will EVER complain about their tone.

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1 minute ago, Al Krow said:

And the mammals will get a D class head and an excellent lightweight cab and look after their backs, and no one will EVER complain about their tone.

As I said I still light weight cab and class D head but the amp and cab new are nearly £2000, the RCF cab is actually easier to move than the bass cab too. 

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Just now, stingrayPete1977 said:

How much cost and combined weight is a comparable amp and cabinet? 

If you want to go new then £900 and 37lbs

But you have the option of a lot of fantastic gear second hand. When was the last time an RCF 735A came up second hand?

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5 minutes ago, stingrayPete1977 said:

The dinosaurs will keep buying a bass rig as big as they can because it's ingrained. 

That's where I'm splitting the difference  cheating!

For those gigs where a monster amp is expected I have the big cab to wheel in. No one need know that it doesn't hurt when I pick it up! xD

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as a slight aside to the above - I use a Yamaha DBR15 as a backline cab (not for me as i'm on Helix/IEMs/PA but for the two guitarists who shun such things :facepalm:)  All this talk of RCF cabs has got me thinking - does anyone have any experience with how a DBR15 compares to a RCF 735 or 745 when used as a backline cab ?  For the record, I also have a BF Super Twin / Crown XLS1500 power amp setup that is great but in our current band setup, is rather unnecessary .

Edited by intime-nick

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5 minutes ago, stingrayPete1977 said:

As I said I still light weight cab and class D head but the amp and cab new are nearly £2000, the RCF cab is actually easier to move than the bass cab too. 

Pete, really? Just look in the FS section and come up with your RCF 735A - you won't find one. 

I could find you a 100 decent rig combinations from the FS for a LOT less than £2,000.

 

Edited by Al Krow

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4 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

If you want to go new then £900 and 37lbs

But you have the option of a lot of fantastic gear second hand. When was the last time an RCF 735A came up second hand?

What amp and cab is that? 

Comparable in range and volume. 

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4 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

Pete, really? Just look in the FS section and come up with your RCF 735A - you won't find one. 

I could find you a 100 decent rig combinations for less from the FS for less.

 

This is a bass forum, I'd imagine a pa sales site would yield better results plus that's a totally different issue and the fact no one has sold them on tells you something doesn't it? 

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3 minutes ago, stingrayPete1977 said:

What amp and cab is that? 

Comparable in range and volume. 

Certainly comparable in quality and usefulness for me as a bass player. 

Markbass AC 121 Lite Combo. It's 500W rather than a than 700W, but kinda irrelevant as I've never needed it turned up more than half, so the extra 200W is superfluous headroom for me. 

Doubt we will be able to do this test any time soon, but for me the test is a simple one: half way through a 2 hour set, swap with the combo for a 735A and see if anyone notices?

It's my basic 'would anyone give two hoots, if you did that?' test. 

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15 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

When was the last time an RCF 735A came up second hand?

Lots of sales and yet none come up second hand. Kinda tells you what you need to know.

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Oh please. LOTS of sales of FRFR gear. Really? Let's not get carried away. 

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On 09/03/2018 at 00:57, CameronJ said:

 

23 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

Pete, really? Just look in the FS section and come up with your RCF 735A - you won't find one. 

I could find you a 100 decent rig combinations from the FS for a LOT less than £2,000.

 

See above. Used and B-stock deals do pop up. The Basschat Marketplace can’t possibly be the benchmark by which the popularity of PA gear is measured?!

That said, I got my HD32a from the FS section here for considerably less than new price including fitted soft case and original box in as new condition. Shipped. The only reason the seller was moving it on was because he was no longer gigging due to health issues and therefore had zero need for a lot of the gear he’d put time into researching and eventually buying - I got a great deal.

A casual eBay search has thrown up a pair of the exact monitors I use for even less per unit than I paid for mine - https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.co.uk%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F123077341361

Gear4Music currently have a couple of brand new earlier model 735s priced at £739

Edited by CameronJ

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17 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

Oh please. LOTS of sales of FRFR gear. Really? Let's not get carried away. 

FRFR gear - why don't you go into a PA shop and try telling them that they are not selling any PA tops. Do tell us how they laugh at you.

FRFR is a term that has been coined by the modelling community - but it's another word for PA speakers.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/line6helixusergroup/ - 14k+ users. The vast majority of those users have paired them with PA speakers.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/363954780291903/ - 10k+ users. The vast majority of those users have paired them with PA speakers.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/23174569478/about/ - 10k+ users. The vast majority of those users have paired them with PA speakers.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/headrushboard/about/ -1k+ users. (This is a minority share of the market but still growing)

35k+ potential FRFR users just in those groups - there's going to be none facebook people not represented in those figures... and all the people that are using PA cabs for PA use alone. I would argue there's a lot of FRFR solutions being sold... 

Edited by EBS_freak

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36 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

RCF 735A = 48 lbs

Not light.

£875.

Not cheap.

700W RMS, more than adequate.

The RCF745 is lighter than the 735, although it does cost more.

My Helix and RCF745 is replacing BassPod XT Pro, Peterson Stroborack, SFX MicroThumpinator, Tech SoundSystems Black Cat Amp, EBS Proline 210 and 410 cabs all of which combined cost me a lot more even taking into account that some of it was at second-hand prices. In fact when I factor in my guitar rig unless I'm very unlucky, I should make back enough money from selling my old gear to more than cover the cost of the new rig.

I can't see myself going back to a "conventional" bass rig. At a push a could carry everything plus one bass in a single short journey. I can't even lift the EBS 410 cab on my own!

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23 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

Doubt we will be able to do this test any time soon, but for me the test is a simple one: half way through a 2 hour set, swap with the combo for a 735A and see if anyone notices?

It's my basic 'would anyone give two hoots, if you did that?' test. 

Make sure that you try changing your £1000 bass for your £50 Sue Ryder too... and ask the audience again.

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3 minutes ago, LukeFRC said:

When did this thread get so angry?

I’d describe it more as robust debate than anger. Though I can see how it could be interpreted as anger at times...

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50 minutes ago, EBS_freak said:

FRFR gear - why don't you go into a PA shop and try telling them that they are not selling any PA tops. Do tell us how they laugh at you.

FRFR is a term that has been coined by the modelling community - but it's another word for PA speakers.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/line6helixusergroup/ - 14k+ users. The vast majority of those users have paired them with PA speakers.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/363954780291903/ - 10k+ users. The vast majority of those users have paired them with PA speakers.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/23174569478/about/ - 10k+ users. The vast majority of those users have paired them with PA speakers.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/headrushboard/about/ -1k+ users. (This is a minority share of the market but still growing)

35k+ potential FRFR users just in those groups - there's going to be none facebook people not represented in those figures... and all the people that are using PA cabs for PA use alone. I would argue there's a lot of FRFR solutions being sold... 

Fair play! But how many are bass players?

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1 hour ago, Al Krow said:

Certainly comparable in quality and usefulness for me as a bass player. 

Markbass AC 121 Lite Combo. It's 500W rather than a than 700W, but kinda irrelevant as I've never needed it turned up more than half, so the extra 200W is superfluous headroom for me. 

Doubt we will be able to do this test any time soon, but for me the test is a simple one: half way through a 2 hour set, swap with the combo for a 735A and see if anyone notices?

It's my basic 'would anyone give two hoots, if you did that?' test. 

I had the opportunity to visit Alain Caron (AC) in his studio while he was transitioning from Roland to MarkBass. 

He explained to me that the Roland D-Bass combos were designed with his feedback and the goal was to develop the most neutral combo possible, with the technology of the time.  They came up with the FFP tech, which is basically a DSP similar to what was found in studio monitors.  In SuperFlat mode, you had as much as a FRFR system as it was possible in those days.  As Roland was moving out of the professional bass amp market, he was approached by MB...

At the time of my visit, Alain was in the process of A/B testing the MarkBass prototype combo with his reference for what he was looking for:  his own studio monitors.  This is what he uses at home.  This is what he wanted to have on stage.   No coincidence the design is similar to a PA system (bi-amped, powerful tweeter, etc.)

With the controls "neutral", this is probably one of the most FRFR combo available, plus you get the MB coloring on demand.  Love this combo!

 

Edited by JSB
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