Can't get a good tone...

[BrunoBass]

I play a Music Man Stingray as my main bass and a Squier Dimension as my backup bass through a TC Electronic BH250/115 combo, both live and in rehearsal. I don't really use effects, no compression, just an occasional touch of fuzz from a Big Muff on the couple of songs that require it. I play 95% of the time with my fingers.

I'm having real problems getting a good tone, which is becoming increasingly frustrating. I always put all eq flat, on both amp and guitar, and just tweak the amp eq to suit the room we're in. I try and keep the mids around 12 o'clock and roll back the bass and treble, to cut through and not tread on my band mates toes frequency wise. I always keep the gain just below the clipping point. But still it sounds horrible; clangy and harsh. In rehearsal and the pub gigs we play I've never had to take the master volume past 7.

Now at low volume (1-3) I can get a great sound, with all the middle-y honk that I love my Stingray for, and also when playing with headphones plugged in to the amp it can sound fantastic, but as soon as I get up to about 25% of the volume the trouble starts, which leads me to believe that it's the speaker that's the issue here, although it's not distorting, more a deterioration of the tone itself. This applies when playing both my Stingray and my Dimension.

Those of you with experience in such matters - what do you think? Is my combo at fault? Is the speaker size a problem? It's driving me mad. I realise my particular amp isn't a high end model but it surely it should be capable of a decent, useable tone? Any advice gratefully received.

[JTUK]

This is a problem with many many amps. They don't amp up well...which
means (IMO) that they can't retain the character as you turn the volume up.

Aguilar ToneHammers adjust very well when you turn them up, for example,
but a lot of amps lose it.

My general feeling is that this is more prevalent on cheaper amps as it is likely a
design/pricepoint issue.

What also doesn't help... IME.. is unresponsive strings..altho for others, this is a core sound.

For me, I try and make the signal as clean as possible, knowing that at some point
in the chain, that is likely to 'degrade' ...

The good things seems to be that you get the spound you want/like ..so all you have to do
is get the amp to amplify it better.
Maybe a better amp with do this...
or start with the low volume sound, and as you turn up.. back off the EQ controls a tad..
You might have to adjust all of them.. depending how the amps 'controls' increases in volumes
with regards to the rest of the pots

[Lozz196]

Too clangy and harsh, Stingray & Dimension (both with just bridge pickup I assume) bass backed off, TC Electronic amp. Mid-city here is what I`m thinking. I`d look at bring the bass and treble back in to even it all out. Remember a tone that sounds great and exactly what you want in isolation isn`t always the one that works when everything else is going on.

There also may be a "cleanliness" of sound issue as well - maybe look at the Toneprint and get some of the TC Tubetone which works really well at removing the, what sound like (to me) sharp edges of the TC tone. That said, I do think JT has a point there, some amps don`t seem to keep their tone as they`re pushed to upper volumes. You`ve got a great bass in a Stingray, I`d look to match that amp-wise, nothing wrong with TC gear, far from it, but it is a much lower budget amp than bass pairing.

[JTUK]

The only thing I'd try and do is keep the EQ backed off. Lozz suggests bring in the TnB which might work..you'll have to play around but my thinking is not to try and equalise the sound with another opposite equalistion.
I probably haven't explained that very well..but the way to get into all sorts of trouble EQ is to blot out a
tone charateristic with another..

This is why people like to start from flat. (whatever that is on the amp) as then you are
tuning the sound with sutble tweaks.. as opposed to..in an extreme example, turning up the mids..not liking them and drowning them out with bass. Or, running onboard EQ contrary to your amp sound..

This is a sure way to confuse and get in all sorts of trouble soundwise. IMO.

Also, when I'm trying a new sound.. the changes I make might evolve over a few weeks...
so little and often, in my case.

Edited January 9, 2016 by JTUK

[chris_b]

Can you borrow a bass to see if your tone problems persist.

Then, try your basses through a different amp.

[BrunoBass]

Thanks for all the useful advice guys, much appreciated. A new (better) amp is out of the question right now, so I think it's a question of persisting with EQ and seeing what I can do. Just spent the afternoon practicing (with headphones) and it sounds awesome - if only I could transfer that tone to high volume!

[Truckstop]

Try some flats (I'm assuming you use round wounds?). They should be able to tame some of the zing you're getting.

It's possible that the signal from the bass is hot. Try lowering the height of the pickup; it might smooth out some of those clanky frequencies.

If you don't want to try flats, it might be worth experimenting with some new strings anyway. Some strings sound naturally harsh, some are a little smoother. I use LaBella Stainless Steels for this exact reason, I hate zing! The LaBellas are zingy for about two hours and then they mellow right down.

[Muppet]

I have one of these amps, though I mainly use it for rehearsals and quieter practice. The 'voicing' changes the more you turn it up and it's designed this way apparently. So, the good sound that you get at lower volumes is different at higher ones. I always adjust the tone in line with the master setting.

A couple of questions though, what's it sound like through the headphone socket and could there be anything environmental i.e. In the venue, where you're positioning it for example that could affect it?

Steve

[Muppet]

Ah you already answered the headphones question!

[Highfox]

Stingrays are pretty aggressive. Try turning the vol down on the bass and let the amp work, that works for me sometimes and a softer touch.
other than that more speakers and a shared load might help.

[Pinball]

I've had similar problems when I switched from my old Ashdown to GB amplification. I immediately lost the beloved tones that I had been refining over time and found the new tones comparatively sterile.
In my case I moved from EMG powered basses to a Stingray and was happy.

I think that Markbass and TC are at the most "modern sounding" end of the amplification available so (as suggested) I would try flats and if that doesn't do the trick you are going to have to change something more major.

GL

Edited January 9, 2016 by Pinball

[JapanAxe]

I believe the culprit here could be the way TC optimise the Class D output stage in their amps - their '[url="http://cdn-downloads.tcelectronic.com/media/914735/tc_electronic_bass_amp_power_rating___active_power_management.pdf"]active power management[/url]'. It is likely become more apparent as you wind up the wick

[Woodinblack]

I don't get clangy and harsh on my BG250 - 112, but then I tended to use a harkte bass attack in front ot if, so maybe that smoothes it off a bit. I don't notice much of a change from min to max.

I have just got a new TCElectronic rh450 that I am using with a 410, and I must admit it is a nicer sound, if less convenient!

[Guest bassman7755]

The fact that you like the headphone sound would on the face of it make it more likely that its the speaker that your not liking since most modern solid state amps retain their sound integrity extremely well upto about 80% of their maximum output and the majority don't get too horrid even in this range. But ultimately it could be either the amp or the speaker that your not liking (or even faulty), only way to know for sure is by process of elimination i.e. plugging in a different cab or using a different amp to drive the speaker.

[Dan Dare]

As others suggest, a lot amps don't turn up well. Master on 7 is pushing it for many. You need to move air for a clean fat bass sound, which needs wattage and driver square footage. Guitar players are often OK with smaller kit because they like an overdriven sound. Try an add on cab and slave amp?

[gjones]

A Stingray is an expensive, premium, professional, great sounding, instrument. Your amp is entry level and priced for beginners. You could buy 6 TC combos for the price of a new Stingray.
If you invest in an amp, that will let you hear you bass accurately at high volume, your problem will be solved.

[Ghost_Bass]

If you love the sound through headphones and at low volume then i would say that your problem is most likely with the TC. The cab isn't putting out what it should. Find a different amp, take your basses to a shop to try then with another amp at volume and see if the problem is solved.

Sell the TC and find a replacement here in the FS section, you should find something suitable at a good price.

[mrtcat]

If you want to try a different amp / cab / bass etc then I'm only 20mins from you and happy to have a listen and let you try any of my stuff.

[bassmachine2112]

Hiho,try not to overboost the bass n treble on your bass,try and cut instead.Took me a long time to learn that one with my Musicman
,Musicman preamps are very powerful and can overpower the EQ on your amp and the speakers with big bass and brittle treble.Old style 2 band EQ was boost only all the way only on bass n treble which scooped the mids or overpowered them into submission more like.

[Twincam]

Wouldn't a classic smiley face eq work better here when loud, Instead of the frown your suggesting.
Also stingrays and the dimension bass have the pickup near to the bridge so it's going to be less rounded than say a p bass naturally not that I think the bass is the issue.
Although isn't some clank part of the stingray tone? So I've heard.

[JapanAxe]

[quote name='Twincam' timestamp='1452535203' post='2950930']
Wouldn't a classic smiley face eq work better here when loud, Instead of the frown your suggesting.
[/quote]

No, you end you just accentuating the lowest notes, plus finger noise and hiss! The warmth/roundness is all to do with the mids.

[Twincam]

[quote name='JapanAxe' timestamp='1452535397' post='2950932']


No, you end you just accentuating the lowest notes, plus finger noise and hiss! The warmth/roundness is all to do with the mids.
[/quote]

Not sure I fully agree with you there. Yes you will accentuate the low notes but a nice shallow smile has never caused finger noise and hiss in my experience with any amp. I'm talking a shallow smile here, not massively scooped mids! Which would probably do that.
Just sounds to me his mids are boosted to much combined with any bass with its pu near the bridge sounds to me like a recipe for clank and harsh tone. Surely adding lows will help balance this?

Mind you I'm having eq trouble myself with my trace Elliot combo. I can get one really good tone. But can't get anything else I like.

[Dood]

[quote name='JapanAxe' timestamp='1452364874' post='2949328']
I believe the culprit here could be the way TC optimise the Class D output stage in their amps - their '[url="http://cdn-downloads.tcelectronic.com/media/914735/tc_electronic_bass_amp_power_rating___active_power_management.pdf"]active power management[/url]'. It is likely become more apparent as you wind up the wick
[/quote]

The BH heads do not use the APM circuit, only the RH heads do

[deksawyer]

My advice would be to start with your tone knobs on the amp flat and tweak from there - if you need to add a smidge of bass or mid, then just do it - but it's high mid/treble that's giving you the clank. The Stingray isn't blessed with a lot of bottom end (and is well known to sound clanky) so I usually click the bass knob just over the centre detent on mine to fill it out - and I like the clank.

Also, turn down or switch off the tweeter. And wear good earplugs as well - that alone is a game changer.

At the end of the day, tweak your own sound the way you want it and let the rest of the band worry about their own setup.

D.

[Conan]

[quote name='Twincam' timestamp='1452536155' post='2950942']
Just sounds to me his mids are boosted to much combined with any bass with its pu near the bridge sounds to me like a recipe for clank and harsh tone. Surely adding lows will help balance this?
[/quote]

Cutting some of the troublesome high mids would make more sense I think. Much more sensible to get rid of what is causing the problem than try to mask it by adding something else IMO/IME