chris_b Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 (edited) [quote name='grandad' timestamp='1434523187' post='2800324'] [url="http://www.vulture.com/2015/04/brown-sugar-still-tastes-good.html"]http://www.vulture.c...astes-good.html[/url] [/quote] This is the downside of the internet. Anyone can put up the most ridiculous and fanciful bullshit and people will believe it. Edit. . . just re read that .. . . Vulture not Grandad Edited June 17, 2015 by chris_b Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No lust in Jazz Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 [quote name='bonzodog' timestamp='1434479880' post='2800050'] Does anyone else play it and could it cause offence? After googling it, it would appear some do find it a bit offensive. For anyone that doesnt know its about the black slaves on board a ship being raped so not exactly a light hearted song [/quote] We don't play it - I love the song though.. Where does it mention rape? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandad Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 [quote name='bonzodog' timestamp='1434528041' post='2800358'] I am not suggesting if we play it, people will assume we are support the content. I just wondered if anyone had had bad experiences playing it. I am not sure how comfortable I would be singing it if there were people in the audience who may get offended rightly or wrongly. Its interesting that some of the lyrics web sites have changed the words, most notably 'with the women' instead of 'whip the women'. Not sure if this is deliberate or not as they do get quite a few wrong in other songs [/quote] Being comfortable with the lyrics is important to me as I play for my own enjoyment and also hope it gives pleasure. If you choose to use your music as a vehicle to convey an opinion or attitude, thats ok too. The great thing about song lyrics is the scattering of double-entendre thus allowing for instance both parents and children to enjoy a number. One of my favourite numbers by the Stones is Sweet Virginia. For years I thought it praised the beauty and colours of the flora, i.e. 'greens and blues'. I have just penned an arrangement of C C Rider very different to Ma Rainey's 1924 version or the Elvis 1970. I prefer it, some would call it sacrilege. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonzodog Posted June 17, 2015 Author Share Posted June 17, 2015 [quote name='No lust in Jazz' timestamp='1434529664' post='2800374'] We don't play it - I love the song though.. Where does it mention rape? [/quote] Although it does not specifically mention rape in the lyrics I was concerned that after googling it, there are a large number of people who rightly or wrongly make connections to rape and the slave trade, hence my question as to has it caused offence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No lust in Jazz Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 [quote name='bonzodog' timestamp='1434529972' post='2800378'] Although it does not specifically mention rape in the lyrics I was concerned that after googling it, there are a large number of people who rightly or wrongly make connections to rape and the slave trade, hence my question as to has it caused offence. [/quote] Ok so Rape isn't in the lyrics. Slave trade references / connections are - the Stones have worked with; and as I found quite recently, actively promoted black musicians, who to my knowledge haven't taken offence to their songs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandad Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 [quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1434528266' post='2800361'] This is the downside of the internet. Anyone can put up the most ridiculous and fanciful bullshit and people will believe it. Edit. . . just re read that .. . . Vulture not Grandad [/quote] I don't neccessarily agree with everything in the article but it did seem relevant to the debate and provide food for thought. I like songs with wit and subtlety and insinuation and tongue in cheek and euphemism and double-entendre. Bues and Rock poetry has produced such fabulous lines - if you don't like my peaches honey, please don't shake my tree, I got the pork chop you got the pie, shake your money-maker, etc. The music in 'Brown Sugar' is classic. The lyrics maybe lack much of the above. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Jack Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 [Irony] If there's one consistent theme that runs through the pop/rock of the last 50 years, it's that songs written & performed by young whippersnappers like those awful Rolling Stones (why can't they get their hair cut?) seem to be designed to shock and offend. It's almost as if they're trying to be provocative. Why can't musicians just stick to good, wholesome stuff like The Golliwog's Cakewalk? [/Irony] I suppose I could make a list of songs that are either gratuitously, in-your-face offensive, or which cover very dark territory indeed but do so in unexpected ways (e.g. Perfect Day, by Lou Reed). Frankly I haven't got the seventeen hours it would take to make that list anything like comprehensive. The world now seems to be full of dedicated offendees, those who are determined to be offended by something, no matter what it is, no matter how out of context they have to take it. And do you know what? It always turns out that SOMETHING SHOULD BE DONE! Why would anyone choose to live their life as part of a brain-dead tabloid headline? Have these people really got nothing better to think about? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norris Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 Not being the singist I didn't know the lyrics until I looked them up. It won't stop us performing the song. Many songs are written with darker lyrics. It's not as if the lyricist is condoning the subject matter - more often it's an experience they have had that inspires them to write about it, and often it will be to draw attention to the issue. I see the case for changing specific lyrics that are now seen as offensive (e.g. The Sun Has Got His Hat On) but not to avoid controversial subject matter entirely Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevB Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 It's in the new band's set that I've joined. I imagine it will go down fine with their expected target audience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scrumpymike Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 I think it's good to be open to stuff that is thought-provoking, arouses strong feelings and stimulates debate. In any case, we're free to choose whether we perform/listen to this and other songs - no-one makes us or stops us. I was recently discussing performing Sympathy For The Devil with a guy that I knew was an active christian. When I asked him whether he was ok with that, he said: "Hey, it's just a song!" I thought was fair enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Jack Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 Well Hell ... if even Cliff could perform "Devil Woman" ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No lust in Jazz Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 (edited) [quote name='scrumpymike' timestamp='1434537708' post='2800500'] I think it's good to be open to stuff that is thought-provoking, arouses strong feelings and stimulates debate. [/quote] I personally don't think that Brown Sugar is thought provoking, nor arouses strong feelings and debate. I think that the internet provides a largely unregulated platform to 'spout off' - just like I'm doing Edited June 17, 2015 by No lust in Jazz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuckinthepod Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 We play it and people love it. Don't worry, play it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonzodog Posted June 17, 2015 Author Share Posted June 17, 2015 Well its agreed that its in the set now so will have a few outings over the next few weeks. Will report back with any feedback! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonic_Groove Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 [quote name='The Badderer' timestamp='1434494040' post='2800261'] The fact there is a song written about this topic and that it is regularly performed, does not mean that anyone who performs it condones slavery, rape or prostitution. These are topics it is important to actually talk about and for them to be present in our society as a pointer back to the past, and for it to be ok to be talked about. Sweeping it under the carpet is the wrong thing to do. What about all the millions of women who are still in slavery and sexual slavery today? This topic still needs to be in the public eye. Are we supposed to ban the Blues? That is how I would talk to a disgruntled punter about it anyway.... [url="http://www.globalslaveryindex.org"]http://www.globalslaveryindex.org[/url] [/quote] Big +1 to this Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonic_Groove Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 [quote name='Happy Jack' timestamp='1434535804' post='2800474'] I suppose I could make a list of songs that are either gratuitously, in-your-face offensive, or which cover very dark territory indeed but do so in unexpected ways (e.g. Perfect Day, by Lou Reed). [/quote] Perfect Day? - Day out, Feed animals, Movie, Home? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Jack Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 [quote name='Sonic_Groove' timestamp='1434541948' post='2800572'] Perfect Day? - Day out, Feed animals, Movie, Home? [/quote] Wake up, take heroin, meet junkie girlfriend, take more heroin, watch the day pass by, take more heroin. Allegedly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonic_Groove Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 (edited) [quote name='Happy Jack' timestamp='1434547905' post='2800648'] Wake up, take heroin, meet junkie girlfriend, take more heroin, watch the day pass by, take more heroin. Allegedly. [/quote] "Allegedly!!!" As someone else on this thread said the interweb if full of None Humble Opinion "interpretations" of art... [size=4]Lou was not [font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]an allegorical hidden m[/font]eaning writer when he wrote a love song to Heroin it was called "Heroin'! listen to The "Berlin" album for straight talking darkness![/size] Sorry to OP if thread drift B Edited June 17, 2015 by Sonic_Groove Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ras52 Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 Even if it's not about heroin, it's still pretty dark: you made me forget myself, I thought I was someone else, someone good... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skankdelvar Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 We dropped Brown Sugar from the set after an unfortunate contretemps when we played Diane Abbot's birthday party. After discussion we decided to go with Honky Tonk Women instead but rewrote the lyrics to avoid giving offence. I met a gin soaked bar room queen in Memphis I put her in a cab and sent her home Paid her tab and went back to my hotel And read the Gideon bible all alone It's the Honky Tonk Women Who would most benefit from gender identity counselling I met a divorcee in New York city Exploiting her vulnerable status ran entirely counter to the personal guidelines I have set for myself The lady then she covered me with roses "I hope these flowers came from a fair trade partner who pays their workers a living wage and respects diversity standards which would meet with the approval of enlightened progressives everywhere" I said, knocking back my glass of herbal tea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad3353 Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 [quote name='skankdelvar' timestamp='1434553547' post='2800725']...After discussion we decided to go with Honky Tonk Women instead but rewrote the lyrics to avoid giving offence... [/quote] Taps foot, clicks fingers, nods in rhythm... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Starr Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 [quote name='stuckinthepod' timestamp='1434539495' post='2800524'] We play it and people love it. Don't worry, play it. [/quote] funnily enough we were discussing this last night. There's a bit of humbug here from both sides. Bands play BS because punters love it. They don't play the song to educate people or 'keep the issue' alive. Most bands and audiences would have no more idea of what the lyrics say and mean than say, Lady Marmalade where ironically the only bit they get is the French Given the rest of the Stones output at the time it was probably just meant to be a sexy song, I don't suppose Jagger would write those lyrics now. Fortunately they wrote a load of great songs so there is no need to look at it and I wouldn't play it, but wouldn't get in a huff if someone else does. Most singers in cover bands have no idea what they are singing about anyway. We were talking about Blurred Lines and Rockstar as being a bit too dubious to do when BS came up as another example of songs we'd think twice about. Leader of the Gang anyone? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drTStingray Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 (edited) I'd never realised Brown Sugar was anything other than reference to sex of one sort or another (not unusual for a Stones song). However the one I nowadays cringe at playing is Sweet Home Alabama with its Deep South attitude towards racism and support of violent put down of black protest - cringeworthy in my book, in a similar way to a couple of 70s British sit coms which only get shown as clips to demonstrate how society has changed since then - but Sweet Home Alabama goes down a storm presumably because no one takes the lyrics in. Edited June 17, 2015 by drTStingray Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muzz Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 Ummmmm, why would you cringe? Where's the support for racism and violence in there? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No lust in Jazz Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 [quote name='skankdelvar' timestamp='1434553547' post='2800725'] We dropped Brown Sugar from the set after an unfortunate contretemps when we played Diane Abbot's birthday party. After discussion we decided to go with Honky Tonk Women instead but rewrote the lyrics to avoid giving offence. I met a gin soaked bar room queen in Memphis I put her in a cab and sent her home Paid her tab and went back to my hotel And read the Gideon bible all alone It's the Honky Tonk Women Who would most benefit from gender identity counselling I met a divorcee in New York city Exploiting her vulnerable status ran entirely counter to the personal guidelines I have set for myself The lady then she covered me with roses "I hope these flowers came from a fair trade partner who pays their workers a living wage and respects diversity standards which would meet with the approval of enlightened progressives everywhere" I said, knocking back my glass of herbal tea. [/quote] Could you post a recording of this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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