What makes someone a 'pro'?

[leftybassman392]

There are a couple of threads around the forum ATM that revolve around the status of 'pro' musicians and their relationship with ordinary mortals (for want of a better term). I was going to post in both of them but felt that in both cases, what I wanted to say would be slightly off the main thrust of the thread... and so:

To me the definition of a professional musician (and, more generally, a music professional) is actually *really* simple. It is somebody who earns their living entirely or primarily by carrying out a range of activities within the music industry - as a rule of thumb, if you specify your main occupation using the word 'music' or 'musician' on official forms that require it then you are a music professional. IMHO any other definition runs the risk of confusing the issue - on reading the two threads in question it became abundantly clear that different posters were using differing benchmarks in making their point. To be fair, one or two people did raise this very point in their posts, but nobody seemed to really pick up on the idea (unless I missed something of course - always a possibility). As in all walks of life, music professionals come in all shapes and sizes.

Here's my perspective. For 15 years earned my living through a range of music-related activities - I played (guitar and bass); I taught (likewise); I ran a small project studio for hire; I ran a P.A. hire business. All these things were done for money (most of the time anyway). I had no other source of income - what money I made came entirely from these activities. How did I earn my living? I was a music professional (I think my HMRC Self-Assessment form used to say 'Music Services' or some such).

Was I famous? No. Did I ever share a stage with anybody famous? No, not really; although a few of them were fairly notable in their field and in demand by people who know what they want (although IME there's plenty of outstanding musicians out there that nobody's ever heard of, and plenty who are famous but have done little or nothing to deserve it and should feel both lucky and humble to be where they are). Was I good? Well I can't really answer that except to say that for every activity that I was involved in, I knew plenty of people who were better at it than I was. Having said that, I was never short of students to teach or bands to play in so I must have been quite good at some of it at least... Did I consider myself special in any way? No. Not at all. I was just somebody trying to earn some sort of a living doing something I loved and would in different circumstances have done for nowt.

During this time I thought of myself as a music professional (although I seriously doubt that I'm the sort of person that some have in mind when they use the term 'pro' in this context).

So to the question that lies at the heart of this post: what do you mean when you talk about 'pro' musicians? Perhaps if we know what people mean when they use the term it might help. It might not, of course; on balance though, better to have asked the question I think.

[gary mac]

Good post Lefty.

[Dood]

I think I replied in the original post - or one of them at least. For me, the dictionary summed it up without further thoughts!

[color=#3f3f3f][font=Georgia, serif][size=4]Definition of [/size][/font][/color][color=#3f3f3f][font=Georgia, serif][size=4][i]professional[/i][/size][/font][/color][color=#3f3f3f][font=Georgia, serif][size=4] in English:[/size][/font][/color]
[color=#5d5d5d][font=ArialMT, sans-serif][size=4][b]Adjective[/b][/size][/font][/color]
[color=#f37a19][font=ArialMT, sans-serif][size=3]1[/size][/font][/color]
[color=#000000][font=ArialMT, sans-serif][size=4]Relating to or [/size][/font][/color][url="http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/belong"][color=#166db5][font=ArialMT, sans-serif][size=4]belonging[/size][/font][/color][/url][color=#000000][font=ArialMT, sans-serif][size=4] to a [/size][/font][/color][url="http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/profession"][color=#166db5][font=ArialMT, sans-serif][size=4]profession[/size][/font][/color][/url][color=#000000][font=ArialMT, sans-serif][size=4]:[/size][/font][/color]
[color=#000000][font=Georgia, serif][size=4][i]young professional [/i][/size][/font][/color][url="http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/person"][color=#166db5][font=Georgia, serif][size=4][i]people[/i][/size][/font][/color][/url]

[color=#f37a19][font=ArialMT, sans-serif][size=3]1.1[/size][/font][/color]
[url="http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/worthy"][color=#166db5][font=ArialMT, sans-serif][size=4]Worthy[/size][/font][/color][/url][color=#000000][font=ArialMT, sans-serif][size=4] of or [/size][/font][/color][url="http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/appropriate"][color=#166db5][font=ArialMT, sans-serif][size=4]appropriate[/size][/font][/color][/url][color=#000000][font=ArialMT, sans-serif][size=4] to a professional person; [/size][/font][/color][url="http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/competent"][color=#166db5][font=ArialMT, sans-serif][size=4]competent[/size][/font][/color][/url][color=#000000][font=ArialMT, sans-serif][size=4], [/size][/font][/color][url="http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/skilful"][color=#166db5][font=ArialMT, sans-serif][size=4]skilful[/size][/font][/color][/url][color=#000000][font=ArialMT, sans-serif][size=4], or [/size][/font][/color][url="http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/assure"][color=#166db5][font=ArialMT, sans-serif][size=4]assured[/size][/font][/color][/url][color=#000000][font=ArialMT, sans-serif][size=4]:[/size][/font][/color]
[color=#000000][font=Georgia, serif][size=4][i]his professional [/i][/size][/font][/color][url="http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/expertise"][color=#166db5][font=Georgia, serif][size=4][i]expertise[/i][/size][/font][/color][/url]
[color=#000000][font=Georgia, serif][size=4][i]their [/i][/size][/font][/color][url="http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/music"][color=#166db5][font=Georgia, serif][size=4][i]music[/i][/size][/font][/color][/url][color=#000000][font=Georgia, serif][size=4][i] is both [/i][/size][/font][/color][url="http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/memorable"][color=#166db5][font=Georgia, serif][size=4][i]memorable[/i][/size][/font][/color][/url][color=#000000][font=Georgia, serif][size=4][i] and professional[/i][/size][/font][/color]

[color=#f37a19][font=ArialMT, sans-serif][size=3]2[/size][/font][/color]
[url="http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/engage#engage"][color=#166db5][font=ArialMT, sans-serif][size=4]Engaged[/size][/font][/color][/url][color=#000000][font=ArialMT, sans-serif][size=4] in a specified [/size][/font][/color][url="http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/activity"][color=#166db5][font=ArialMT, sans-serif][size=4]activity[/size][/font][/color][/url][color=#000000][font=ArialMT, sans-serif][size=4] as one’s [/size][/font][/color][url="http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/main#main"][color=#166db5][font=ArialMT, sans-serif][size=4]main[/size][/font][/color][/url][url="http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/pay#pay"][color=#166db5][font=ArialMT, sans-serif][size=4]paid[/size][/font][/color][/url][url="http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/occupation"][color=#166db5][font=ArialMT, sans-serif][size=4]occupation[/size][/font][/color][/url][color=#000000][font=ArialMT, sans-serif][size=4] rather than as an [/size][/font][/color][url="http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/amateur"][color=#166db5][font=ArialMT, sans-serif][size=4]amateur[/size][/font][/color][/url][color=#000000][font=ArialMT, sans-serif][size=4]:[/size][/font][/color]
[color=#000000][font=Georgia, serif][size=4][i]a professional [/i][/size][/font][/color][url="http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/boxer#boxer"][color=#166db5][font=Georgia, serif][size=4][i]boxer[/i][/size][/font][/color][/url]

[color=#f37a19][font=ArialMT, sans-serif][size=3]2.1[/size][/font][/color]
[color=#f37a19][font=ArialMT, sans-serif][size=4][i]informal[/i][/size][/font][/color][color=#000000][font=ArialMT, sans-serif][size=4] , [/size][/font][/color][color=#f37a19][font=ArialMT, sans-serif][size=4][i]derogatory[/i][/size][/font][/color][url="http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/habitually"][color=#166db5][font=ArialMT, sans-serif][size=4]Habitually[/size][/font][/color][/url][color=#000000][font=ArialMT, sans-serif][size=4] making a [/size][/font][/color][url="http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/feature"][color=#166db5][font=ArialMT, sans-serif][size=4]feature[/size][/font][/color][/url][color=#000000][font=ArialMT, sans-serif][size=4] of a [/size][/font][/color][url="http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/particular"][color=#166db5][font=ArialMT, sans-serif][size=4]particular[/size][/font][/color][/url][url="http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/activity"][color=#166db5][font=ArialMT, sans-serif][size=4]activity[/size][/font][/color][/url][color=#000000][font=ArialMT, sans-serif][size=4] or [/size][/font][/color][url="http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/attribute"][color=#166db5][font=ArialMT, sans-serif][size=4]attribute[/size][/font][/color][/url][color=#000000][font=ArialMT, sans-serif][size=4]:[/size][/font][/color]
[color=#000000][font=Georgia, serif][size=4][i]a professional [/i][/size][/font][/color][color=#166db5][font=Georgia, serif][size=4][i][url="http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/gloom"]gloom[/url][url="http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/-monger"]-monger[/url][/i][/size][/font][/color]

[color=#5d5d5d][color=#6d6b6b][font=ArialMT, sans-serif][size=4][font=Georgia, serif][size=4][i]Noun[/i][/size][/font][/size][/font][/color][/color]
[color=#f37a19][font=ArialMT, sans-serif][size=3]1[/size][/font][/color]
[color=#000000][font=ArialMT, sans-serif][size=4]A person [/size][/font][/color][url="http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/engage#engage"][color=#166db5][font=ArialMT, sans-serif][size=4]engaged[/size][/font][/color][/url][color=#000000][font=ArialMT, sans-serif][size=4] or [/size][/font][/color][url="http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/qualify"][color=#166db5][font=ArialMT, sans-serif][size=4]qualified[/size][/font][/color][/url][color=#000000][font=ArialMT, sans-serif][size=4] in a [/size][/font][/color][url="http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/profession"][color=#166db5][font=ArialMT, sans-serif][size=4]profession[/size][/font][/color][/url][color=#000000][font=ArialMT, sans-serif][size=4]:[/size][/font][/color]
[color=#000000][font=Georgia, serif][size=4][i]professionals [/i][/size][/font][/color][url="http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/such"][color=#166db5][font=Georgia, serif][size=4][i]such as[/i][/size][/font][/color][/url][url="http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/lawyer"][color=#166db5][font=Georgia, serif][size=4][i]lawyers[/i][/size][/font][/color][/url][color=#000000][font=Georgia, serif][size=4][i] and [/i][/size][/font][/color][url="http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/surveyor#surveyor"][color=#166db5][font=Georgia, serif][size=4][i]surveyors[/i][/size][/font][/color][/url]

[color=#f37a19][font=ArialMT, sans-serif][size=3]1.1[/size][/font][/color]
[color=#000000][font=ArialMT, sans-serif][size=4]A person [/size][/font][/color][url="http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/engage#engage"][color=#166db5][font=ArialMT, sans-serif][size=4]engaged[/size][/font][/color][/url][color=#000000][font=ArialMT, sans-serif][size=4] in a specified [/size][/font][/color][url="http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/activity"][color=#166db5][font=ArialMT, sans-serif][size=4]activity[/size][/font][/color][/url][color=#000000][font=ArialMT, sans-serif][size=4], especially a sport, as a [/size][/font][/color][url="http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/main#main"][color=#166db5][font=ArialMT, sans-serif][size=4]main[/size][/font][/color][/url][url="http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/pay#pay"][color=#166db5][font=ArialMT, sans-serif][size=4]paid[/size][/font][/color][/url][url="http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/occupation"][color=#166db5][font=ArialMT, sans-serif][size=4]occupation[/size][/font][/color][/url][color=#000000][font=ArialMT, sans-serif][size=4] rather than as a [/size][/font][/color][url="http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/pastime"][color=#166db5][font=ArialMT, sans-serif][size=4]pastime[/size][/font][/color][/url][color=#000000][font=ArialMT, sans-serif][size=4]:[/size][/font][/color]
[color=#000000][font=Georgia, serif][size=4][i]his first [/i][/size][/font][/color][url="http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/season"][color=#166db5][font=Georgia, serif][size=4][i]season[/i][/size][/font][/color][/url][color=#000000][font=Georgia, serif][size=4][i] as a professional[/i][/size][/font][/color]

[color=#f37a19][font=ArialMT, sans-serif][size=3]1.2[/size][/font][/color]
[color=#000000][font=ArialMT, sans-serif][size=4]A person [/size][/font][/color][url="http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/competent"][color=#166db5][font=ArialMT, sans-serif][size=4]competent[/size][/font][/color][/url][color=#000000][font=ArialMT, sans-serif][size=4] or [/size][/font][/color][url="http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/skilled"][color=#166db5][font=ArialMT, sans-serif][size=4]skilled[/size][/font][/color][/url][color=#000000][font=ArialMT, sans-serif][size=4] in a [/size][/font][/color][url="http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/particular"][color=#166db5][font=ArialMT, sans-serif][size=4]particular[/size][/font][/color][/url][url="http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/activity"][color=#166db5][font=ArialMT, sans-serif][size=4]activity[/size][/font][/color][/url][color=#000000][font=ArialMT, sans-serif][size=4]:[/size][/font][/color]
[color=#000000][font=Georgia, serif][size=4][i]she was a [/i][/size][/font][/color][url="http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/real#real"][color=#166db5][font=Georgia, serif][size=4][i]real[/i][/size][/font][/color][/url][color=#000000][font=Georgia, serif][size=4][i] professional on stage[/i][/size][/font][/color]

[Weststarx]

A professional musician to me would be someone who is in a band or solo act that makes money from playing or creating music.

Anything outside of that I would consider them as whatever their job title is e.g. salesman, promoter etc but would cover them with the blanket of 'professional in the music industry' providing they are qualified in the job they are doing.

[Weststarx]

[quote name='dood' timestamp='1423063188' post='2680190']
I think I replied in the original post - or one of them at least. For me, the dictionary summed it up without further thoughts!

[/quote]

My post was actually first in the form of an essay arguing with myself what I considered a 'professional' to be and how it is measured and that does pretty much sum it up in half the words I orginally wrote!

Edited February 4, 2015 by Weststarx

[JTUK]

To me, the only definition of a pro really worth taking note of is someone who excels to such a degree
that they are pretty much top of their game.
And probably the 'inspiration' of this thread is pretty much at the TOP of the game.

That is not to say other efforts are worthless, of course, but we are talking about a degree of excellence
here in that the top people hire the TOP people. That is a rarified field indeed.

Earning a living from music because you play in a function band that can pay you £30k a year is not the same thing.
No offence to guys doing that and that is no easy thing to do, for sure, but it doesn't fall under my definition, FWIW.

If you play with a REALLY good player, then you'll get an insight into what in means to be that good... you might not understand how
they got there, but the people they work for get it...and will pay for it.

[BILL POSTERS]

[quote name='Weststarx' timestamp='1423063665' post='2680201']
A professional musician to me would be someone who is in a band or solo act that makes money from playing or creating music.


[/quote]

Also, depending on which thread/who you ask. Someone who always has a spare Bass, uses a music stand and plays what the crowd want to hear - even if its All Right Now.

[paul_5]

Having no money. Ever.

[leftybassman392]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1423063812' post='2680205']
To me, the only definition of a pro really worth taking note of is someone who excels to such a degree
that they are pretty much top of their game.
And probably the 'inspiration' of this thread is pretty much at the TOP of the game.

That is not to say other efforts are worthless, of course, but we are talking about a degree of excellence
here in that the top people hire the TOP people. That is a rarified field indeed.

[/quote]

...which pretty much excludes around 95% of the people who consider themselves professional musicians. I suspect we're destined to disagree on this one. You see, in my book what you're talking about here is not professional musicians but elite musicians (whatever that might mean).

[artisan]

If you were to earn your living by playing any musical instrument,even if you are sh*te at it then you are in fact a professional musician or pro'for short.
end of

[JTUK]

[quote name='leftybassman392' timestamp='1423066843' post='2680275']
...which pretty much excludes around 95% of the people who consider themselves professional musicians. I suspect we're destined to disagree on this one. You see, in my book what you're talking about here is not professional musicians but elite musicians (whatever that might mean).
[/quote]

Yes, I agree, which is why I bracketed my answer as such.
I am not not acknowledging them as professionals from an ability to earn POV.

[BILL POSTERS]

[quote name='artisan' timestamp='1423066984' post='2680280']
If you were to earn your living by playing any musical instrument,even if you are sh*te at it then you are in fact a professional musician or pro'for short.
end of
[/quote]

This.

Cant see how it could be anything else really.

[RhysP]

[quote name='artisan' timestamp='1423066984' post='2680280']
If you were to earn your living by playing any musical instrument,even if you are sh*te at it then you are in fact a professional musician or pro'for short.
end of
[/quote]

This.

[Low End Bee]

From my experience a 'Pro' is someone who seldom gets there round in.

[Dad3353]

If Dood's dictionary definitions are not sufficient, then I suggest inventing another language. Definitions are what they are by definition, aren't they..?

[leftybassman392]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1423067139' post='2680283']
Yes, I agree, which is why I bracketed my answer as such.
I am not not acknowledging them as professionals from an ability to earn POV.
[/quote]

Which would mean, if I've understood you correctly, that the vast bulk of musicians playing in symphony orchestras don't count as professionals properly speaking (otherwise they'd be working as soloists in their own right because only soloists - who by definition are the ones at the top of their particular game - count as professionals). Is that correct?

Or are you only joking around - bit of a larf? I ask in all seriousness, because I can't see what else would explain such an, er, unusual claim. No offence intended.

Edited February 4, 2015 by leftybassman392

[JTUK]

[quote name='leftybassman392' timestamp='1423073228' post='2680387']
Which would mean, if I've understood you correctly, that the vast bulk of musicians playing in symphony orchestras don't count as professionals (otherwise they'd be working as soloists in their own right because only soloists - who by definition are the ones at the top of their particular game - count as professionals). Is that correct?

Or are you only joking around - bit of a larf? I ask in all seriousness, because I can't see what else would explain such an, er, unusual claim. No offence intended.
[/quote]

No, I understand the standard that [b]some[/b] orchestral players are at..
I make the distinction that because someone makes a living at music makes them professional
but is no garantee that they are a pro standard.... and I tried to make clear that the only real degree
of pro that really means anything is someone of an exceptional standard, ...IMO.
Any bod can be pro by virtue of making money at it... some buskers could be considered pro by that regard.
I am not demeaning it so much as quantifying that, as far as I am concerned.
Other people might be happy with it...but there is no way my old piano teacher who biffs out a few choons
with his ham-fisted style is a pro, from my POV. But he doesn't do anything else by way of income..!!

Others may have a different take on it

[TimR]

We are, of course, confusing 'pro' with 'big name'.

As is evident there are hundreds of thousands of proffesional musicians. Only a handful of big names.

I chatted with a big name who was at a party that my band played at. He even stood in for a couple of numbers. He played well enough considering he was unprepared. My guess is he was probably extremely good at playing his bands own material but just as good as the rest of us at standard covers. Nothing magical that he could just play anything. I suspect I knew more tunes than he does as his sole music output is playing in his band at Butlins etc.

On the other hand I've played with pro musicians who just have an encyclopaedic knowledge of tunes. My dad isn't a pro but at 75 has probably played almost every tune ever written. You get to a point where you just know what chord should come next. Music isn't very mystic once you've got some sound experience and theory knowledge.

[Dad3353]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1423073940' post='2680393']
No, I understand the standard that [b]some[/b] orchestral players are at..
I make the distinction that because someone makes a living at music makes them professional
but is no garantee that they are a pro standard.... and I tried to make clear that the only real degree
of pro that really means anything is someone of an exceptional standard, ...IMO.
Any bod can be pro by virtue of making money at it... some buskers could be considered pro by that regard.
I am not demeaning it so much as quantifying that, as far as I am concerned.
Other people might be happy with it...but there is no way my old piano teacher who biffs out a few choons
with his ham-fisted style is a pro, from my POV. But he doesn't do anything else by way of income..!!

Others may have a different take on it
[/quote]

Do you apply this same 'logic' to other professions and/or vocations, or solely musicians..? A professional plumber..? A professional footballer..? A professional vicar..? I understand the differentiation you're aiming at, but am hard pressed to come up wit an adequate word for this limited understanding of the term. I'll keep looking, but meanwhile, do others seem the same to you..?
No malice intended; simply curious.

[SpaceChick]

Funny enough, I have been having this conversation only today whilst dropping off some tickets for my gig on Saturday in the shop that is selling them for us.

There was a punter in the shop who wanted to buy tickets, but the shop had run out (hence me dropping more in).

Shop keeper "Ah Debs, perfect timing. This chap wants to buy two tickets"

"Great" I reply.

"You managed to leave work early then" replied the shop keeper

"yes" I replied

"I thought you were professional musicians" chirps in the punter

I replied "It depends on your definition of professional. We put on an authentic show. However, music doesn't pay enough to pay my bills. I guess you'd probably class as as semi professional"

"oh OK" he replied

Shop keeper chirps in "they are professional, they a f***ing awesome"

Personally to me, I think to be a true professional, you need to be able to make your money through music and be able to turn your hand to any genre and have the skills to play whatever is required. For this reason I will NEVER be professional but I could say I am semi professional as I do make some money from playing music!

[oldslapper]

Someone who uses a music stand.

[Skol303]

I think it's quite simply someone whose primary income is from playing music.

Someone who has 'musician' written on their tax return, or their passport.

[i]EDIT: are professions written on passports?? I'll have to check... [/i]

Edited February 4, 2015 by Skol303

[lowdown]

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1423075967' post='2680431']


Do you apply this same 'logic' to other professions and/or vocations, or solely musicians..? A professional plumber..? A professional footballer..? A professional vicar..? I understand the differentiation you're aiming at, but am hard pressed to come up wit an adequate word for this limited understanding of the term. I'll keep looking, but meanwhile, do others seem the same to you..?
No malice intended; simply curious.
[/quote]

I am very curious as well.

[Jus Lukin]

-

Edited February 22, 2022 by Jus Lukin

[ironside1966]

I worked both has a pro musician and a live sound engineer for a number of years but had to retire due to medical grounds over 10 years ago. Now music is just my hobby I mainly concentrate on recording and mixing nowadays. I have also studied sound recording at both collage and university so I have been lucky enough to experience musicians on most levels, students pro, semi pro and amateurs.

The thing with working with pros is you know you will get the job done, no fuss or bulls**t. it's just the same with engineers has it is with musicians.
Working with students, armature and a number of semi pro players things are a bit more hit and miss, they might be able to give you what they want if you keep within their comfortable zone, but genially things take longer, run less smoothly and I have less confidence in them even though on the face of the may seem to have the same ability.
I will finish by saying there are plenty of exceptions to this but they are my general findings.