New PA for band - who should pay?

[ratking]

Well, with 70 gigs a year, I myself would actually try to find a professional solution. The band then more or less is a professional business, and you seem to make money with it, right? Then I'd buy things like PA, mixing desks, monitors, mics, cables etc. for the band, either with money you've put back for such things (though I haven't played in a band that far-sigthed up to now ), or every "share holder" pays an equal share. If someone leaves? Then he gets back his share ... Not the full money, but the remaining asset value (here in Germany, it's usually minus 25% per year, after 4 years, it's fully expensed, so you don't get back anything). That would be the professionell "business" approach, that should leave noone feel ripped off.

The only other working solution I have found up to now: One band member (in my band, that was me ) buys the PA, the band can use it in the practice room (it has to be stored somewhere anyway), and the owner gets the money back by renting it to other bands for small gigs, or his wife for her belly dancing troupe For each gig, he gets a certain amount of the income as PA rent, too.

Edited May 19, 2012 by ratking

[MrRatty]

I agree that the whole band benefits so if nobody wants to buy and own the whole PA then it makes sense for everybody to contribute. If the PA is to be purchased jointly then it belongs to those who contributed in proportion to how much they contributed. So five members contributing equally each own 20%. If two members also want to use it on other projects then perhaps they should buy two shares to everybody else's one so drums, bass and keys pay 14% each and vox & guitar pay 29% each. Anyone leaving the band must be bought out at whatever rate of depreciation has been agreed, anything else seems like theft to me. Most important is to agree everything in writing first.

Edited May 19, 2012 by MrRatty

[dave_bass5]

I think if the whole band pay equal shares then those who want to use it away from full band gigs should hire it at an agreed fee.

[12stringbassist]

If singer doesn't play any other instrument (just sings), then perhaps they should buy something
towards it such as the PA amp. The whole band should then chip in on speakers, etc.
Each of you buys your own monitor - which is your own property.

If the singer buys other gear (eg guitar or bass and amps), then equal shares in all PA equipment.
Each of you buys your own monitor - which is your own property.

In both cases, anyone leaving the band is bought out (on basis of current resale value of gear
they have a share in), by rest of band. Agree in advance that resale value is 50% of new price.

[pietruszka]

It is a tricky one, I've just bought a pa for my band. I found the simplest way was to just buy it myself, I own it, all parts of it are in my possession. If any other members need it they can hire it from me providing its not in use. Financially it's not the most ideal but there are no complications. And if someone leaves, I still have the pa and there's no arguments.



Dan

[Happy Jack]

http://www.livesystems.co.uk/pa-system-hire.html

[ironside1966]

Whatever you decide draw up and sign an agreement.

My solution would be to buy the PA has a collective, if anyone levers the band they should get their share providing they work out an agreed notice, taking into account a depreciation.
The band should then rent the PA to the Duo for a fair price, the money should go to the upkeep of the PA/Van/ investment/ or annual bonus.
if any member of the band is replaced or added then the new member should be put on a wage and the remaining members keep the assets and profits.

Above all treat everyone with fairness and respect, treat others has you would like to be treated. I have seen far too many bands split because of greed and the end result is always the same, everyone loses out

[discreet]

[quote name='skankdelvar' timestamp='1337441057' post='1660071']
Amazed that this one slipped past Discreet.
[/quote]

What..? There's nothing even remotely salacious about belly-dancing, is there?

[markstuk]

I have some sympathy with the point of view that if you don't use the PA personally why should you pay towards it... The argument that it's part of the joint performance equally applies to instruments and backlines.. However in practice what has worked best for me is for everyone to own part of the PA - not only does it share out the carrying around it also means that possession actually means ownership... This clearly does not work as the band scales to a point where everyone is going through the PA, you have an engineer and everything is stored in one place, but if you're at the vocals, bit of guitar, kick/snare through the PA which the bands i'm in are, then it seems to work fine...

[Musky]

Just reading between the lines here, but it occurs to me that the guitarist is angling for remuneration for the time he was providing the band with the PA. Might be worth bearing in mind in any negotiations and be prepared with a response.

[markstuk]

This +1 ...

[quote name='Musky' timestamp='1337445258' post='1660184']
Just reading between the lines here, but it occurs to me that the guitarist is angling for remuneration for the time he was providing the band with the PA. Might be worth bearing in mind in any negotiations and be prepared with a response.
[/quote]

[discreet]

[quote name='markstuk' timestamp='1337445186' post='1660182']
...However in practice what has worked best for me is for everyone to own part of the PA - not only does it share out the carrying around it also means that possession actually means ownership...
[/quote]

I thought this would work too, but in the OP's case the PA is also used for the singer and guitarist when they go out as a duo, so logistically would be a right PITA if everyone owns different bits of it...

[markstuk]

I dare you to try asking me to pay for PA that I'm not using but that you want to use somewhere else I double dare you I think in the OP's case the most sensible thing is for the Duo to buy the PA and for the rest of band members to pay rent on it per gig... The amount of rent is a different issue
[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1337445481' post='1660194']
I thought this would work too, but in the OP's case the PA is also used for the singer and guitarist when they go out as a duo, so logistically would be a right PITA if everyone owns different bits of it...
[/quote]

Edited May 19, 2012 by markstuk

[Lfalex v1.1]

[quote name='crez5150' timestamp='1337433131' post='1659866']


I would personally look to take money from each gig you do in the future to pay for said PA.
[/quote]
This.
Over the medium to long term, [b]any[/b] band that ever makes any money should put aside a percentage or fixed amount of their income to cover any unforeseen circumstances.
In the best band I was in, we put away all the funds from CD/merchandise sales into a bank account (with 2 signatories)
This then covered recording sessions, and the recording side of the band became self-financing.
If we had a hefty surplus, it'd pay for a Christmas booze-up (whilst keeping some back, of course)
And we were only a moderately "serious" amateur originals band....

[thebrig]

In my band, my equipment exceeds £3,000, both guitarists about the same each, and the drummer has a £4,000 kit.

So when our new vocalist joined the band, he went out and bought a full PA, as he thinks it is only fair that he should contribute a bit more than around £100 on a mic.
It would be different if he played an instrument as well, then we would all chip in, but as he only sings, I think this is fair.

[ZMech]

Go on Dragon's Den, see if you can get one of them to pay for it

[skankdelvar]

OK - here's the (revised) deal, based on everyone's suggestions:

If the band (5-piece?) eventually covers half the cost, each will have paid 1/5th of 50%. The guitarist pays out the other 50%.

So five members contributing equally each own 20% of half the value of the PA. If two members also want to use it on other projects then perhaps they should buy two shares to everybody else's one so drums, bass and keys pay 14% each and vox & guitar pay 29% each.

Gig money should be reinvested in non-PA kit that benefits the band (Lights, drum riser, backdrop and - when necessary - pyrotechnics, lasers, strippers, etc). Each member of the band should contribute 20% of their (non-PA allocated) gig money into this 'Other Items' fund.

For reasons of health and hygiene, everyone should own their own mikes, which should be clearly marked and designated as 'Smoking', 'Non-smoking' and 'Chesty cough, could be catching'.

The guitarist and singer buy their own mic stands. The keys and bass should buy their own mics which should be headset mics, to avoid the cost of mic stands. The drummer buys neither vocal mics nor stands (but supplies his own drum mics).

Each of you buys your own monitor - which is your own property, unless the duo needs to borrow it at which time a hire fee can be agreed. If the monitors are powered monitors and can accept a feed from a small mixer, they should be considered a 'small PA' and each member of the band should contribute 20% of the monitor cost to a central pot, which would reimburse each member equally.

If anyone leaves they will be offered a fair amount, based on the resale value divided by the number of band members. But if someone contributes 20% of a £10k rig it doesn't necessarily mean that he can walk away with £2k when he leaves in 5 years time, he leaves with 20% of whatever the rig is worth in 5 years time.

The value of the PA after 5 years must be assessed by an independent third party. The value might be nothing, if the PA gets stolen and isn't insured.

PA insurance. Each band member who is not a member of the duo should contribute 14.5% of the insurance premium. The two duo members should contribute 58% of the premium.

The rest of the band should pay the guitarist 29% of the notional 'storage costs' (excluding Insurance because that's already been covered off (apart from the duo, who owe themselves 58% of the 60%)), but the guitarist has to reinvest this money in a new van for the band, using the 'storage' money, his own money and any money the rest of you have put back for such things.

For using the van every "share holder" pays an equal share of the running costs but not the tax disc or 58% of the insurance, because the guitarist uses the van for the duo.

If someone leaves then he or she gets back his share ... Not the full money, but the remaining asset value usually minus 25% per year, after 4 years. So if the band lasts 4 years, nobody owes anyone anything. But if the band lasts 5 years or more, the guitarist owes everyone else money for the PA.

Unless someone leaves early, which means that everyone owes the guitarist something, including the guitarist himself. If the whole band pay equal shares then those who want to use it away from full band gigs should hire it at an agreed fee.

Unless the band splits up.

The drummer should agree to look after all mains leads and keep them in a safe place like - say - right at the very back of his shed, up the chimney of his kids' Wendy house or in his reptile vivarium under the smaller of the two Anacondas.

Simples!!

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Edited May 19, 2012 by skankdelvar

[LiamPodmore]

Everyone chips in, and gets their share back when they leave [b]OR[/b] everyone buys part of it [b]PLUS[/b] the guitarist keeps the PA he already owns for use by the duo.

That would be my ideal solution.

Liam

[size=5]Infact, ignore all of this and just do what Skankdelvar said, it sounds much more entertaining.[/size]

Edited May 19, 2012 by LiamPodmore

[bobbytodd]

the way we did it was we all payed the same amount for the f o h but if one of us leaves the other 3 will buy his share off him at current second hand prices as we have all taken the money from the gigs we have already done anyway

[Lozz196]

In my band we`ve just bought a PA, and it`s the bands, and the money from gigs is paying for it. If anyone leaves, that`s their choice, but, should the band fold, we`ll sell it, and anyone who was in the band will get a share, irrespective of how long they were in the band. This in fact did happen when we split up last time - selling the old PA, then finding out 6 months later we were reforming, so having to buy another one - doh!

[Dad3353]

I firmly believe in autonomy, so I own pretty well everything (drums, mics, PA, bass amps, basses, truck and more...). If we're playing bigger venues, I've a buddy with a PA company who lends us what we need as complement. We don't charge for gigs; any 'pocket money' collected goes to a festive bean-feast whenever we feel like it.
No, we're not pro's, simply amateurs doing it for our own fun. Simple, really...

[TimR]

%ages gets fiddly.

I got fed up with hiring gear, reserving it, picking it up on gig day, taking it back next day, worrying whether itcwould work etc.

I bought a PA. I hire it to the band. If it fails I fix it or replace bits. I add parts as time goes on.

I charge the band £50 everytime. This is mainly justified by the extra time I spend loading, unloading, fixing bits, storage etc.

After 10 years I now have a PA that should have paid for itself several times over but I suspect hasn't due to the bits I've added and replaced. Not including my free time I've spent fixing and ordering new cables etc.

The one thing everyone forgets when buying a PA is all the bits. Sure, packages with mixer amp, speakers and stands look cheap but that's just basic starters....

[TimR]

If anyone complains about the £50 I just say fine you buy a PA and we'll pay you. You can store it and bring it to the gig, and put up with the wife complaining about the space it takes up at home.

[BottomE]

You chaps are priceless (unlike a PA). Some really good and funny contributions and i can go armed with some idea of how to approach this.

Watch out next week for the "My Band Has Split After 5 Years" thread

[ThomBassmonkey]

If the band needs it, the band should pay for it. Just take gig earnings from any gig using the PA (including the singer/guitarist's duo set) until it's paid off. Then it belongs with the band, if anyone leaves, it's not a problem. If the band's paid for it and it's paid off then the band splits, just leave it with whoever stored it, as it's owned by the band, no one really has a better claim to it than storage.

If the band really needs the PA then I can't think of a fairer way of doing it. You could argue that the singer should pay for it since you have to pay for your own amp but ultimately you can get a gigging amp for £200, a PA that's suited to the venues you play (especially if you're having to upgrade) and doesn't sound ass could cost a lot more.