Amp to flat

[wateroftyne]

3 minutes ago, Passinwind said:

As a player I don't care the tiniest bit where the knobs point as long as I can get what I need and still have a bit of wiggle room in either direction. But I do enjoy continuing to learn more on the design end, especially since I've retired from gigging and have no plans to ever do so again.

Absolutely. Problem is I usually struggled to put back what was taken out no matter where the knobs were…

[Passinwind]

4 minutes ago, wateroftyne said:

Absolutely. Problem is I usually struggled to put back what was taken out no matter where the knobs were…

Roger that. 

[Dan Dare]

On 10/09/2022 at 20:15, wateroftyne said:

Absolutely. Problem is I usually struggled to put back what was taken out no matter where the knobs were…

 

Pretty well par for the course where the typical amp eq is concerned. With 3, 4 or possibly 5 turnover frequencies, each will cover several octaves of the frequency range. They are very much blunt instruments when it comes to fine tuning the sound. That's why it's so important to find an amp with a neutral tone that you like and don't have to manipulate too much. 

[Phil Starr]

On 06/09/2022 at 10:27, Paddy515 said:

When I want my ABM 3 setting to flat, where should I position the eq knobs/sliders?

 

Bill Fitz mentioned that all to 50%/12 o'clock wasnt necessarily the answer.

I haven't read all the posts so someone may have already given this answer. Why not contact @Ashdown Engineering? They are just the most helpful people and they will know.

 

I love Bass Chat but really; arguing about how flat 'flat' actually is probably wasn't helpful.

[Chienmortbb]

1 hour ago, Phil Starr said:

I haven't read all the posts so someone may have already given this answer. Why not contact @Ashdown Engineering? They are just the most helpful people and they will know.

 

I love Bass Chat but really; arguing about how flat 'flat' actually is probably wasn't helpful.

I must admit that when I measured the amps, I was not really concerned about the flatness, that was an afterthought. I was looking at whether the amps had baked in High Pass Filters. They both did.

[Bolo]

Why would you want a flat response setting on your amp for a non-flat response instrument?

A good sounding amp (be if for bass, guitar, PA or hifi) is not ever going to be on flat settings in actual use. 

There would be only one real world application for it and that is calibration. 

 

If your ears won't tell you what a fairly neutral setting is, but they'll tell you what sounds good to you... That's the best we can wish for.

 

[wateroftyne]

9 minutes ago, Bolo said:

Why would you want a flat response setting on your amp for a non-flat response instrument?

A good sounding amp (be if for bass, guitar, PA or hifi) is not ever going to be on flat settings in actual use. 

There would be only one real world application for it and that is calibration. 

 

If your ears won't tell you what a fairly neutral setting is, but they'll tell you what sounds good to you... That's the best we can wish for.

 

Because, as mentioned above, sometimes the baked-in shape takes out good stuff you can’t put back.

 

BTW, I still maintain that - assuming the plot I’ve been sent is accurate - flat on my head works perfectly for my basses, cab, and musical context.

[Passinwind]

22 minutes ago, Bolo said:

Why would you want a flat response setting on your amp for a non-flat response instrument?

 

 

To eliminate one of the great many variables in our signal chain? In my case, it can be a very useful reference against the various voicings I build into my DIY builds. I don't need flat to be at noon postition on knobs at all athough, just need to be able to get something close to it at some control position not at one end or the other.

[Waddycall]

Why are people baffled by the desire to hear the tone of a bass amplified without alteration? Of course other parts of the signal chain are going to colour the sound but why not have the option of adding what you want e.g. amp modelling to an otherwise “flat” amplified signal?  Seems pretty valid to me. My mustang sounds sh#te through a scooped bass amp but lovely through my flat(ish) channel strip which I can tweak as required. 

[stevie]

A non-flat response instrument?

[itu]

40 minutes ago, stevie said:

A non-flat response instrument?

Flat response and coil-magnet pickup? Contradictionary terms.

[stevie]

Why is that?

[Dan Dare]

2 hours ago, stevie said:

Why is that?

 

Because a magnetic pickup is not a microphone?

[stevie]

Huh?

 

[Dan Dare]

What I said. A magnetic pickup does not "hear" the string in the way that a microphone or our ears do - by physically sensing movement of air molecules. It detects movement of a piece of ferrous wire within a magnetic field. Different processes at work.

[itu]

Coil-magnet pickup is a band-pass filter: it does not reach very high frequencies, nor it does go to DC in the low end. The response is everything but flat.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

Pickups are like speakers. If they had flat response they'd all sound the same.

[Chienmortbb]

11 hours ago, itu said:

Coil-magnet pickup is a band-pass filter: it does not reach very high frequencies, nor it does go to DC in the low end. The response is everything but flat.

That is the point. The sound of your bass is a combination of the materials used in its construction, the pickups and the electronics. Why would you need a fixed EQ in an amp when you have no idea of the response of your bass. If you have the capability to alter the sound of your bass with variable EQ in your bass head, all well and good but it is good to have a reference. 
 

To your point, pick-up response changes with the values of the capacitors and potentiometers attached to and if you have a two pick-up bass each pick-up loads the other. Unless you run with nothing connected between the pick-up and the output Jack, you tone is already baked in. Still I would prefer to be able to listen to the sound of the bass with no external influence THEN adjust the EQ/Shape etc to taste. 

Edited September 15, 2022 by Chienmortbb

[Downunderwonder]

The point of knowing where 'flat' is found is that you can plug in your preamp pedals and minimal tweakage will have you all set. 

[BigRedX]

But the sound that comes out of the speakers is down to the combination of all the elements in the signal chain -the bass, pedals/effects, amp and cab(s), all of which are designed to have a specific sound of their own.

 

In the days when I was still using a conventional bass rig and would often have equipment share gigs, I found there was little point on worrying about "flat". I would plug in to whatever amp/cabs I been given to use, play some bass and tweak the EQ based on what I heard - usually cutting the bass and boosting the mids.

 

Even if there was a definite setting for "flat" on an amp, everyone's signal chain upstream from the amp is going to make them sound different, and everyone has a different idea of what constitutes a good bass sound, which will depend on both personal preference and the instrumentation/sound of the rest of the band.

Edited September 15, 2022 by BigRedX

[warwickhunt]

Blimey, oh for the old days when you just bought an amp to make yourself louder than the drummer! 

 

Surely 'flat' on any given bass amp is of absolutely no use or reference?  All you need to have is an amp that when the controls are set in the centre position you have a basic sound that works for you when used in conjunction with your other equipment; that way you have + or - any given amount to tweak for room vagaries etc.  

 

Taking an amp and running it through spectrum analysis or whatever to find the reference to start from is meaningless if at this flat point you have one or more of your controls at a near max/min of its available travel.  

 

Plug in, put everything in the middle, if it doesn't sound OK/good walk away to the next amplifier.  

[Downunderwonder]

4 minutes ago, BigRedX said:

But the sound that comes out of the speakers is down to the combination of all the elements in the signal chain -the bass, pedals/effects, amp and cab(s), all of which are designed to have a specific sound of their own.

 

In the days when I was still using a conventional bass rig and would often have equipment share gigs, I found there was little point on worrying about "flat". I would plug in to whatever amp/cabs I been given to use, play some bass and tweak the EQ based on what I heard - usually cutting the bass and boosting the mids.

 

Even if there was a definite setting for "flat" on an amp, everyone's signal chain upstream from the amp is going to make them sound different, and everyone has a different idea of what constitutes a good bass sound, which will depend on both personal preference and the instrumentation/sound of the rest of the band.

And yet I have made great milage out of knowing where 'flat' is on various amps before plugging in. The basses and pedals are constants

 

1 minute ago, warwickhunt said:

reference

Absolutely it is a point of reference!!! That's the whole point!!!!

[wateroftyne]

5 minutes ago, warwickhunt said:

Blimey, oh for the old days when you just bought an amp to make yourself louder than the drummer! 

 

Surely 'flat' on any given bass amp is of absolutely no use or reference?  All you need to have is an amp that when the controls are set in the centre position you have a basic sound that works for you when used in conjunction with your other equipment; that way you have + or - any given amount to tweak for room vagaries etc.  

 

Taking an amp and running it through spectrum analysis or whatever to find the reference to start from is meaningless if at this flat point you have one or more of your controls at a near max/min of its available travel.  

 

Plug in, put everything in the middle, if it doesn't sound OK/good walk away to the next amplifier.  

Fair point, but there does seem to be a long-lasting trend to bake in a ‘smile’, which all-to-often (IME) you can’t overcome. Curious as to why.

Edited September 15, 2022 by wateroftyne

[BigRedX]

5 minutes ago, wateroftyne said:

Fair point, but there does seem to be a long-lasting trend to bake in a ‘smile’, which all-to-often (IME) you can’t overcome. Curious as to why.

 

Because it tends to make the amp sound good when you try it out in the shop, which is where most amp sales still happen. We all know that what sounds good when playing on our own is not the same as what sounds good when playing in a band with other instruments. TBH having a mid-scoop baked into the basic amp sound is only a problem if you can't compensate for it elsewhere in your signal chain.

 

Ultimately the best way to deal with it is to ditch your amps and cabs altogether, as they tend to add too many variable to the bass sound.

[warwickhunt]

3 minutes ago, wateroftyne said:

Fair point, but there does seem to be a long-lasting trend to bake in a ‘smile’, which all-to-often (IME) you can’t overcome. Curious as to why.

 

Indeed but those are the amps which the likes of yourself may plug into (HAVE plugged into) and walked away from but it would be a worry if every manufacturer were building the curve/dip that couldn't be defeated and thus NO amp would fit your needs but then you will always have a Leszek come along and capture a share of the market that doesn't want 'that' tone.