Amp to flat

[warwickhunt]

Just now, BigRedX said:

 

Ultimately the best way to deal with it is to ditch your amps and cabs altogether, as they tend to add too many variable to the bass sound.

 

Unless those variables are what makes the sound you like.    
 

I don't like 'neutral', I actually like speakers/drivers that have colour (haven't established the exact shade but it may be purple).  

[wateroftyne]

Just now, BigRedX said:

 

Ultimately the best way to deal with it is to ditch your amps and cabs altogether, as they tend to add too many variable to the bass sound.

Got an amp that doesn’t colour my tone too much at all, and it’s a good match for my cabs. Happy with that.

[BigRedX]

I suppose it depends on the kinds of gigs you do, because you'll always be dependant upon being able to use your own amp and cab(s) to get your sound.

 

The sorts of gigs I do - second or third on the bill at gigs with 3-5 bands playing and sharing backline in order to speed up change-overs means that there is a good chance that I will be presented with something that simply doesn't sound right, and insufficient time to make it sound right. Therefore if I can by-pass having to use an inappropriate amp and cab it makes life simpler for everyone. My sound is essentially in the Helix going straight into the PA. If it wasn't for the fact that one of my bands' sound relies on having a Bass VI, I could use anybody's bass, because once I've put it through all the effects I use they all sound much the same anyway. The ultimate aim of this band is to reduce the on-stage equipment to one keyboard controller, Bass VI and a 3U rack containing the computer and audio/MIDI interface that runs the drums, synth sounds and effects for the bass and vocals, all straight into the PA.

[wateroftyne]

28 minutes ago, BigRedX said:

I suppose it depends on the kinds of gigs you do, because you'll always be dependant upon being able to use your own amp and cab(s) to get your sound.

 

The sorts of gigs I do - second or third on the bill at gigs with 3-5 bands playing and sharing backline in order to speed up change-overs means that there is a good chance that I will be presented with something that simply doesn't sound right, and insufficient time to make it sound right. Therefore if I can by-pass having to use an inappropriate amp and cab it makes life simpler for everyone. My sound is essentially in the Helix going straight into the PA. If it wasn't for the fact that one of my bands' sound relies on having a Bass VI, I could use anybody's bass, because once I've put it through all the effects I use they all sound much the same anyway. The ultimate aim of this band is to reduce the on-stage equipment to one keyboard controller, Bass VI and a 3U rack containing the computer and audio/MIDI interface that runs the drums, synth sounds and effects for the bass and vocals, all straight into the PA.

Yeah, your needs are somewhat more complicated than mine. I generally turn up, set up (bass > amp > cab - no pedals), soundcheck, then… go for chips.

[Chienmortbb]

33 minutes ago, BigRedX said:

I suppose it depends on the kinds of gigs you do, because you'll always be dependant upon being able to use your own amp and cab(s) to get your sound.

 

The sorts of gigs I do - second or third on the bill at gigs with 3-5 bands playing and sharing backline in order to speed up change-overs means that there is a good chance that I will be presented with something that simply doesn't sound right, and insufficient time to make it sound right. Therefore if I can by-pass having to use an inappropriate amp and cab it makes life simpler for everyone. My sound is essentially in the Helix going straight into the PA. If it wasn't for the fact that one of my bands' sound relies on having a Bass VI, I could use anybody's bass, because once I've put it through all the effects I use they all sound much the same anyway. The ultimate aim of this band is to reduce the on-stage equipment to one keyboard controller, Bass VI and a 3U rack containing the computer and audio/MIDI interface that runs the drums, synth sounds and effects for the bass and vocals, all straight into the PA.

Sending a signal from a Helix or any multi-effects units to  PA is like sending your signal to a flat amp/system.

[Ralf1e]

2 hours ago, warwickhunt said:

Blimey, oh for the old days when you just bought an amp to make yourself louder than the drummer! 

 

Surely 'flat' on any given bass amp is of absolutely no use or reference?  All you need to have is an amp that when the controls are set in the centre position you have a basic sound that works for you when used in conjunction with your other equipment; that way you have + or - any given amount to tweak for room vagaries etc.  

 

Taking an amp and running it through spectrum analysis or whatever to find the reference to start from is meaningless if at this flat point you have one or more of your controls at a near max/min of its available travel.  

 

Plug in, put everything in the middle, if it doesn't sound OK/good walk away to the next amplifier.  

Absolutely. If you have to tweak the tone etc a little bit all well and good if you find the sound you want that is where you want to be. There are further very effective tone  controls built into your bass guitar as well. At which point why do you need a muti thousand whatevers pedalboard to make you sound better. Zero the tone on the bass, zero the tone on the amp, don't add any effects. Do you like what you bought? If yes sign here you got the job. If no you just criticised your own judgement in the gear you bought.

The salesmen at every shops you visit must love you deeply as do the designers of lots of stuff we don't need.

Oh my steinway piano I must have some electronic gagets put in to adjust the tone.

As you probably guess by now I love banter he he

Edited September 15, 2022 by Ralf1e

[Passinwind]

4 hours ago, wateroftyne said:

Fair point, but there does seem to be a long-lasting trend to bake in a ‘smile’, which all-to-often (IME) you can’t overcome. Curious as to why.

Because it sells well and to many of us it often or at least sometimes sounds great. Simple. 😉

[Baloney Balderdash]

What I learned from this thread:

 

1. Everyone hears something different!

 

2. Ergo there is no flat!

 

3. Ergo EQ is a lie, an illusion, and doesn't matter, in fact nothing really does, we are all going to ultimately die anyway, so why not just get it over with, no one is going to care or be able to tell the difference in the bigger picture of things, your life is meaningless, stop lying to yourself and snap out of the delusion that anything matters, admit the pointlessness of everything, give in to the fact that it is in fact all totally meaningless and let the void consume you, it's better to burn alive than die trying!

 

 

Edited September 18, 2022 by Baloney Balderdash

[Beedster]

On 15/09/2022 at 11:15, wateroftyne said:

Fair point, but there does seem to be a long-lasting trend to bake in a ‘smile’, which all-to-often (IME) you can’t overcome. Curious as to why.

 

i think it's the same as hifi, there's a tendency among consumers to want to hear what are - in pure audio signal terms - excessive lows and excessive highs as a mark of the quality of the system. This I suspect is on the basis that the absence of these lows and highs was often a mark of the absence of quality, that is lower quality audio systems were very mid heavy. There's a huge difference between a system being mid-heavy because of poor quality components that restrict bass and treble response and being mid heavy as the result of accurate reproduction of the original signal, but I suspect that for many of us we still find that scoop pleasing for these reasons despite the fact that it's rarely a useable tone and distorts the sound of the instrument significantly. While I got there with bass quite quickly, usually as the result of drummers saying they needed more mids to hear me, it took me year to stop scooping hifi on this basis, in part because it also required that I had a good enough audio system to allow a mid-heavy signal to sound good to my ear. 

 

There's a evolutionary argument also (potentially dubious); narrow frequency responses are associated with limited environmental resources. In the environment in which we evolved a wide range of sounds from the lowest produced by large animals to the highest produce by the smallest indicated a diverse and therefore resource-rich natural environment. The absence of these often indicated the absence of life or the presence of predators, while lots of mids indicated insects etc. Lots of mids (which by the way are often used to create tension in movies etc), are apparently not appealing to our brains (keep in mind I did say potentially dubious above).

 

So, perhaps scoop is to audio what sugar and salt are to food; for reasons tied into the way our brains are wired either through learning or evolution, we tend to buy more of the product the more it contains, consciously or otherwise?

[Beedster]

In fact, perhaps in evolutionary terms the excessive highs and lows of a scooped audio system are shouting "Hey look what I can do" in the same way as a peacock extending his feathers, no use in real terms whatsoever, but critical in propagating his DNA  

[Baloney Balderdash]

Personally I like mids and have always done and never understood what exactly is supposed to be so appealing and attractive about an inarticulate undefined mess of mud and hiss.

 

Taking the above two replies by @Beedster into account I guess that must mean that I am on a higher evolutionary step than most. 

 

 

Edited September 18, 2022 by Baloney Balderdash

[Beedster]

1 hour ago, Baloney Balderdash said:

Personally I like mids and have always done and never understood what exactly is supposed to be so appealing and attractive about an inarticulate undefined mess of mud and hiss.

 

Taking the above two replies by @Beedster into account I guess that must mean that I am on a higher evolutionary step than most. 

 

 

 

Yes 👍

 

But all joking aside, I was like a kid in a sweet store when I first used amps - both bass and hifi - that could do decent lows and highs, largely as the result of having had to endure 15-20 years of inarticulate and undefined mids associated with poor quality audio. 

[Dan Dare]

23 hours ago, Beedster said:

 

Yes 👍

 

But all joking aside, I was like a kid in a sweet store when I first used amps - both bass and hifi - that could do decent lows and highs, largely as the result of having had to endure 15-20 years of inarticulate and undefined mids associated with poor quality audio. 

 

The midrange is where most of the critical information is. The frequency extremes are dressing. Talking of hi-fi, I was in one of those shops that sell very expensive stuff you've rarely heard of and heard a low wattage valve amp and horn speakers. The guy in the shop put the obligatory Ry Cooder album on the turntable. The instrumental intro was nothing to write home about - there was little of either frequency extreme - but when the vocals came in, it was remarkable. It's a cliche, but I did have that "It's as if he's in the room singing" moment. I promptly forgot about the lack of low bass and the fact that the percussion was not very sparkly and started wondering whether I could possibly find a way to afford to buy it.

[Beedster]

11 minutes ago, Dan Dare said:

 

The midrange is where most of the critical information is. The frequency extremes are dressing. Talking of hi-fi, I was in one of those shops that sell very expensive stuff you've rarely heard of and heard a low wattage valve amp and horn speakers. The guy in the shop put the obligatory Ry Cooder album on the turntable. The instrumental intro was nothing to write home about - there was little of either frequency extreme - but when the vocals came in, it was remarkable. It's a cliche, but I did have that "It's as if he's in the room singing" moment. I promptly forgot about the lack of low bass and the fact that the percussion was not very sparkly and started wondering whether I could possibly find a way to afford to buy it.

Absolutely, I had the same the first time I ran Nina Simone through my tube hifi amp and Tannoys, blew me away how in the room it all sounded 👍

[Dan Dare]

8 hours ago, Beedster said:

Absolutely, I had the same the first time I ran Nina Simone through my tube hifi amp and Tannoys, blew me away how in the room it all sounded 👍

 

Which Tannoys do you have? I've always wanted a pair. My old house had a 25x15 ft lounge, so I could have accommodated decent sized ones. The place I've bought recently has a lounge around half that size, so I'm thinking 8s or maybe 10s. I fancy building a set of those Wilmslow Audio kit cabs and getting a pair of Tannoy DCs to put in them. 

[BigRedX]

I used to have a pair of 1960s Tannoy Golds with 10" dual concentric drivers. They had a nasty upper-mid range hump which over-accentuated our female singer's vocals no matter which settings of the "treble" controls on the back were applied. Also the pair didn't sound quite the same, something that was very obvious when using them as studio monitors and panning a synth sound from left to right. Fine for flattering records made in the 60s and early 70s but not much use for anything else.

[Chienmortbb]

On 19/09/2022 at 09:22, Dan Dare said:

 

The midrange is where most of the critical information is.

This is true and it's why @stevieof this parish has done so much work on dispersion on the BC112 MK3 and other designs.  It is not just about having an FRFR response rather than a "voiced" cabinet. The issue is that bass drivers beam the mids, and you do need a compression driver and horn that work well together to ensure those vital mids are heard by everyone.