Amp to flat

[stevie]

53 minutes ago, Beedster said:

 

Which means that you love it's baked in tone, which is why we choose the gear we choose. But it's not flat, if it was flat why would you love Handbox flat more than Ashdown or Ampeg flat? 

 

Flat isn't a baked-in tone. It's a flat frequency response. If you don't want a flat frequency response in an amp, what response do you want?

[Beedster]

11 minutes ago, stevie said:

 

Flat isn't a baked-in tone. It's a flat frequency response. If you don't want a flat frequency response in an amp, what response do you want?

One that enables me to create the sound I want to create

[wateroftyne]

15 minutes ago, Beedster said:

One that enables me to create the sound I want to create

Or in my case, not. So… we’re back to horses for courses.

 

But let’s not forget the OP wants to know how to get a flat response from the EQ of their amp.

[Dan Dare]

4 hours ago, stevie said:

 

Flat isn't a baked-in tone. It's a flat frequency response. If you don't want a flat frequency response in an amp, what response do you want?

 

That's the point some of us are trying to make. A truly flat frequency response is not achievable by any bass rig. What people perceive as flat - eq switched out of circuit or everything set at mid point/12 o' clock - is nothing of the kind. It's the baked in sound. The question above - why would you love Handbox flat more than Ashdown or Ampeg flat? - is spot on. There should be no difference between them if they were truly flat.

 

Anything short of a substantial PA will be 3db down (or more) at 50hz or so (which isn't even the fundamental frequency of the low E, let alone the B on a 5 string). Many bass rigs are running out of ideas at close to 100hz at any volume and that's not necessarily a bad thing. I've experimented with adding a sub to my bass rig. Not a cheap, one note sub, either (Fohhn XS30). Impressive at low volumes and on its own, but it quickly became mud city in a live situation. By the time I had it set to sound right, the sub was barely contributing anything.

 

What response do I want from an amp? One that gives me the sound I like at realistic volumes. I don't care what it looks like on an oscilloscope. I should imagine most players would want the same.

 

 

Edited September 6, 2022 by Dan Dare

[Dan Dare]

3 hours ago, wateroftyne said:

But let’s not forget the OP wants to know how to get a flat response from the EQ of their amp.

 

I guess he answer is that he can't.

[Beedster]

Just now, wateroftyne said:

Or in my case, not. So… we’re back to horses for courses.

 

But let’s not forget the OP wants to know how to get a flat response from the EQ of their amp.

 

Ah, got you now, the baked in tone and EQ settings of the Walkabout didn't allow you to get the tone you wanted, even with everything theoretically flat. Yep, I found that with the whole range, M-Pulse 600, Venture, Big Block, Titan and Walkabout (I owned the whole bloody lot at one time or another). But is that about not doing flat per se? I know that I preferred the 'flat' or 'core' or 'baked-in' tone of the 400 and Buster ranges, but 

 

Re the OP getting a flat response, I'd ask why, is there some magic about something you 'know' to be technically a flat response that beats your ears and your brain's ability to identify the tone you want to hear? 

 

 

[ped]

10 hours ago, stevie said:

 

Flat isn't a baked-in tone. It's a flat frequency response. If you don't want a flat frequency response in an amp, what response do you want?

A good sound!

 

I think it’s always good to know what your amp sounds like ‘neutral’ so you can understand the gear better. Then when you add EQ you know whether you’re fighting to get away from the baked in tone or adding to a sound you already like.

[Ralf1e]

13 hours ago, Dan Dare said:

 

I certainly agree with that. You need those mids for the classic P or J bass sounds.

I also agree. I was always taught and believe more middle gives more punch.

[Ralf1e]

6 hours ago, Dan Dare said:

 

I guess he answer is that he can't.

Suppose you just used a power amp either stereo or bridged with no eq section at all other than that built into your bass. Would that do the trick? Or do power amps have different sound colouration according to design, maker etc? I suppose they must. What are anyones thoughts on that. Would that help the op

[wateroftyne]

2 hours ago, Beedster said:

 

Ah, got you now, the baked in tone and EQ settings of the Walkabout didn't allow you to get the tone you wanted, even with everything theoretically flat. Yep, I found that with the whole range, M-Pulse 600, Venture, Big Block, Titan and Walkabout (I owned the whole bloody lot at one time or another). But is that about not doing flat per se? I know that I preferred the 'flat' or 'core' or 'baked-in' tone of the 400 and Buster ranges, but 

 

I guess my point could be this: Why do so many amp manufacturers bake in a scoop that you can't get rid of? Not everyone wants one. (see also: Sansamp)

[Beedster]

4 minutes ago, Ralf1e said:

Suppose you just used a power amp either stereo or bridged with no eq section at all other than that built into your bass. Would that do the trick? Or do power amps have different sound colouration according to design, maker etc? I suppose they must. What are anyones thoughts on that. Would that help the op

My Ampeg SVT power amp had a glorious tone with a Precision (no preamp) where it sounded very far from flat to my ear, but less good with other basses. But then I’m biased 😀

[Beedster]

3 minutes ago, wateroftyne said:

 

I guess my point could be this: Why do so many amp manufacturers bake in a scoop that you can't get rid of? Not everyone wants one. (see also: Sansamp)

Yep, with all the hybrid Mesa amps when things got loud on stage a lot of the detail in the bass was lost, the para EQ helped as pushing low mids helped with the tone I wanted but the baked in tone of other amps works better for me, especially as having to push mids too far can leave the bass sounding a bit, well, unnatural. I always felt the mids on those units lack a bit of body, or dare I say heft 🤔

[BigRedX]

I thought that the Walkabout had a passive tone stack (or partly passive) which means that "flat" (or at least minimal EQ) would be with the passive controls at full.

[stevie]

9 hours ago, Dan Dare said:

 

That's the point some of us are trying to make. A truly flat frequency response is not achievable by any bass rig.

I take your point about bass rigs, but the original question was not about bass rigs but a bass amp. There are plenty of bass guitar amps with a flat frequency response. If you check out the technical reviews at Bass Gear Magazine, you'll find them. From memory, the Markbass LMIII is flat with the controls at 12 o'clock.

Knowing that your amp is flat response with the controls at noon doesn't stop you from using your tone controls to get the sound you're looking for. But at least you know what the starting point is.

[Paul S]

This whole thread has confused me.  So far as I can see, or hear, surely it makes no difference where the starting point/flat is on the eq if you are then adjusting it to find the sound you want?  if you have to move it from 9 o'clock, noon or a quarter past 3 the end result will be the same because you are looking for a sound, not a position on a control knob.   And if you still can't find a sound you like, move on to a different amp.

 

Or have I missed the point?  Wouldn't be the first time  

[Lozz196]

I’m with you Paul, I know the sound I want so to me it matters neither where I start or end up as long as I get there. 

[wateroftyne]

I think there’s a couple of lines of discussion here.

 

- What do I need to do to flatten the EQ on my amp?

 

- What is the point of a flat EQ?

 

- Why do so many amp manufacturers bake a curve into the EQ that you can’t necessarily get rid of?

 

There’s probably a few more TBH

[Dan Dare]

1 hour ago, stevie said:

I take your point about bass rigs, but the original question was not about bass rigs but a bass amp. There are plenty of bass guitar amps with a flat frequency response. If you check out the technical reviews at Bass Gear Magazine, you'll find them. From memory, the Markbass LMIII is flat with the controls at 12 o'clock.

Knowing that your amp is flat response with the controls at noon doesn't stop you from using your tone controls to get the sound you're looking for. But at least you know what the starting point is.

 

True. However (and I'm not trying to be controversial), if no bass cab on earth is capable of reproducing that flat frequency response, it's a waste of time - and likely money - trying to achieve it.

 

I know you'll be aware of this with your experience, but flat between which frequencies? All amps are measured between set frequencies - specs will normally state "between X hz and Y khz". All amps incorporate some form of high pass filtering to remove sub bass, which soaks up power needlessly and can damage drive units. In the case of class D, there is low pass filtering to remove the unwanted high frequencies that class D generates.

 

I appreciate there's an element of taking it on trust that designers have done their homework and ensured that spurious frequencies/nasties have been taken care of. It's also the case that designers will resort to mid scoops and similar to give their offerings showroom appeal and impress the prospective buyer with how "clean" they sound. A someone who loves a P bass with flats, I'm no fan of that  Fortunately, it's usually pretty easy to hear it.

 

It's best to audition gear with ones ears, rather than a 'scope. Plenty of people waste time and money chasing the flat frequency response illusion. I know it's their money, but there are better things they could spend it on.

 

 

[BigRedX]

Confession time, just in case you don't already know, I've been a user of multiple-effects for so long now that my bass rigs have really only been a way of making the sound coming out of the effects unit louder and nothing more. Anything in the way of additional colouration produced by the amp and speakers is, for me, completely unwanted. I've now bypassed this problem by going direct into the PA from my Helix and having an RCF powered cab to use for rehearsals and venues with big stages but small foldback systems. For the most recent gigs and rehearsals I've not even bothered with the RCF and TBH the sound in the practice room, on stage and FoH has benefitted massively from this, and has made the band much easier to mix.

 

The problem is that even if your amp has got you into the ball park of your preferred basic sound with the settings as close to "flat" as possible, there's no guarantee that you be able the EQ it into perfection. For this you are completely reliant upon the designer of the amp and yourself having the same tonal goals. That means that the EQ centre frequencies, Q and amount of cut and boost available all need to be right for you to be able to dial in the sound you want. If they are not, you'll never get there no matter how close the "flat" setting is.

Edited September 7, 2022 by BigRedX

[chris_b]

A flat sounding amp is like cooking without salt. Boring.

 

Find the amp that sounds good with the controls at 12 0'clock. Congratulations, you've found the amp for you.

[wateroftyne]

Phew! I’m lucky that I can just plug my bass in, set the knobs to noon, and it sounds awesome 😄

[Ralf1e]

13 minutes ago, wateroftyne said:

Phew! I’m lucky that I can just plug my bass in, set the knobs to noon, and it sounds awesome 😄

Same here with the exception of gain and volume. They both go to about 9 o'clock.

Edited September 7, 2022 by Ralf1e

[stevie]

26 minutes ago, chris_b said:

A flat sounding amp is like cooking without salt. Boring.

 

Find the amp that sounds good with the controls at 12 0'clock. Congratulations, you've found the amp for you.

 

Cooking without salt isn't boring. It's healthy. Add the salt to afterwards. Same with bass amps - season to taste.

 

The 'flat is sterile' mantra seems to be some kind of internet wisdom. There are lots of great sounding amps that are flat response with the controls at noon. They can't all be boring, surely?🙂

Edited September 7, 2022 by stevie

[BigRedX]

28 minutes ago, wateroftyne said:

Phew! I’m lucky that I can just plug my bass in, set the knobs to noon, and it sounds awesome 😄

 

You've simply found an amp that suits the sound in your head. 

 

However I know from your posts on here over the past 10+ years that you've been through quite a few rigs to get there.

[wateroftyne]

30 minutes ago, chris_b said:

Find the amp that sounds good with the controls at 12 0'clock. Congratulations, you've found the amp for you.

…after a multi-year journey trying a shedload of other amps and tweaking their EQ’s to kingdom come.