Live Sound Please Help!

[Firey Jack]

Please help - I play in a 5 piece covers band with 2 guitars, vox, drums. I love playing in the band but there is a huge problem developing for me sound wise - the singer is forever asking me to turn down, even when I can already hardly hear myself over the drums and guitars and I'm considering turning up! This really pisses me off - if I can't hear myself I find I naturally work my right hand harder to try and be heard - this morning after last night's gig my fingers are red raw.

I'm seriously considering quitting because there's no pleasure in it for me getting on stage playing a bass and hardly hearing the result. I have lots of respect for the singers views - he's experienced and his views on sound are often really insightful - this makes it worse. But I do think he's over reacting a bit maybe because a couple of times when the guitarists have got their sound wrong, he's not been able to pick up the note and ended up singing off key, because he can only hear bass and drums. As we all know, the guitars cut through everything and they've recently reigned themselves in a bit - this could be contributing to the problem. Still hear them loud and clear tho! I'm not sure, but I think I just need to get my sound right I think so it cuts through without sounding too boomy maybe? I dunno.

I have a Jazz bass with a TC RH450 driving the 2 x 8" speakers in a TC BG250 208 and a 1 x 15" Trace Elliot cab. I'm changing this for a TC RS112 asap. I've been dicking about with the RH450 settings for weeks but with no real joy. I boost the bass and cut the highs a small amount, low gain and tubetone, middling amount of compression but I'm pretty clueless about that tbh. ANY experience shared, advice guidance etc VERY gratefully received.
#Thanks

[discreet]

Don't boost the bass. If anything, boost the mids. Boosted bass will up your volume but won't give you any definition. Try starting from scratch - turn off all FX, compressors and the like, set your EQ to as flat as you can get it, then turn up the gain to where you're getting a good signal without distortion - then set your overall level with your master. If your singer still complains, turn down the master slightly but boost your mids. It also helps to get at least one of your cabs up to head height so you can hear what you're doing without being too loud. Or possibly use a stand. I use an angled stand to point my cab to my ears, but I only use the one cab.

Check the guitarists EQ too - they need to cut their bottom end - if they're encroaching on your frequency territory it's going to be a problem. Down around 80-120Hz or so you only really want to hear the bass and the kick and not much else.

Edited September 6, 2015 by discreet

[lurksalot]

Pretty much exactly as Discreet has just said , quite often your own tone in isolation might sound lovely and rounded but gets lost in the mix with a band, and by the time you get it loud enough it is adding too much boom at the lowest frequencies. by cutting these back and raising the mids you will hear and be heard much better , without the increase in volume that you think you need.

[Japhet]

Discreet has nailed it. You could also angle your cab away from the singer.

[Firey Jack]

Thanks a lot everyone - much appreciated. I will try all your suggestions.

Lurksalot that sounds like exactly what's happening - there's not much point in me messing with the settings in isolation because as soon as we're playing together, all bets are off - I react to be heard and sound boomy - 15" cab dont help this - and we get the problem.

[TimR]

The 15" trace is a LOUD cab.

But it'll be making all that noise near your ankles and knees. Your ears are about 4-5ft higher than the directional highs coming from the cab.

If you're going for a 2x12" then stack it vertically and tilt it back so the directional highs are aimed at your ears.

In the mean time can you put the 2x8" vertically on top of the Trace and tilt them back a bit?

Also 2 guitarists, make sure they're not cranking the mids and bottom ends. Guitarists like a rich full solo sound which is rubbish for bass players in a live setting. That will be a difficult conversation. Good luck.

.

Edited September 6, 2015 by TimR

[discreet]

[quote name='Firey Jack' timestamp='1441547601' post='2859683']
15" cab dont help this
[/quote]

Driver size has no bearing on frequency.

[mep]

Make sure you allow plenty of time for a sound check and get right out front to hear the foh sound for yourself. Eq as discreet will definitely help. Careful about using a stand although with that speaker configuration you probably don't need to. Also try to stand as far away from your rig as possible on stage.

[Firey Jack]

Cheers everyone! I had no idea driver size had no bearing on frequency -I'd just assumed bigger drivers give more bottom end. Anyways, we have another gig this Thurs in big hotel function room - not much time for sound check, but I'm gonna try and implement suggestions, apart from stands - I'm gonna set the rig up higher tho, think that might help a bit - I've learnt a lot already today - thanks again!

[Firey Jack]

A case of all the gear and no idea maybe - well some of the gear, anyway

[Mykesbass]

Only other thing I'll add to the excellent advice from Discreet and Lurksalot is to be ready to accept a tone that doesn't sound great up close, but try to use a very long lead to hear it from where the audience will be. What may sound like a tone lacking in bottom end up close can sound great further away.

[rushbo]

Following on from Mykesbass, it's always worth checking your volume off the stage as well, as a "quiet" onstage signal to your ears could sound deafening to the punters. Physics is a funny thing, especially those pesky sound waves...

[Firey Jack]

Thanks Rushbo and Mykesbass - that's kinda my experience as well - the worst gigs for me are when it sounds plenty loud out front but I can hardly hear anything on stage - really frustrating and baffles me a lot of the time - seems to be very venue dependent. I'm not too worried about the tone I hear, but for me to play well I need to hear as much articulation, if that's the right term, as possible. Last night, cos of all the dicking about I did it sounded really muddy and indistinct - I suspect it was plenty loud out front tho but

[TrevorR]

I think the advice here nails it. Think about mids for definition and punch rather than bass. Angle the cabs/ a cab up at your ears rather than your knees. See if you can find a stage placement for your cabs that you and the drummer can hear but which places the singer less in the firing line. Those were three of the four things which sprang to mind. The other was decoupling your cab from the floor/stage if that is resonating with your low frequencies. An up turned beer crate from the bar to set a cab on should suffice (looks better than a stool or chair).

[Phil Starr]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1441548095' post='2859687']
Driver size has no bearing on frequency.
[/quote]

Troublemaker

Good advice so far, I can only add a few teccie bits.

Deep bass is dominated by reverberation in most venues (the deep bass bounces off walls floors and ceilings and this reinforces the directly radiated sounds) This means you'll need less deep bass in most gigs than you would use practising at home.

All speakers start to beam the sound in a narrow cone once the sound has a wavelength less than the diameter of the speaker. For bass this means all the mids are beamed. If you don't point the speakers at your ears you won't hear yourself. On the plus side you can hear more without disturbing the balance by pointing speakers at yourself. (or by pointing the guitarists speakers away from your ears )

When sound levels are high your ears adjust to protect themselves against damaging middle frequencies making everything sound muddy. The best way of hearing more is if everyone turns down. Good luck with that!

You'll get better at picking out your bass from the mud just by practice. Just like eavesdropping on an interesting conversation the other side of the room, which I never do of course.

[Happy Jack]

An excellent slew of advice here which I can't really add anything to, so I'll offer a new perspective.

Buy a Zoom H2 or similar and start recording your band. Rather than relying on opinions (the singer's, your own, comments from punters) you can actually listen to how you sound.

It's not a black & white thing and recorders often struggle to capture the true sound of the bass, but it's way better than nothing.

[crez5150]

I'd be inclined to ask why it is your singer is asking you to turn down. If you are so quiet that you cannot hear yourself while the drums are playing, maybe its that your vocal monitoring for the singer is not adequate?

[Low End Bee]

I have TC gear. 450 classic, RS210 & RS112. I've noticed that in a band mix if I have everything flat master volume is set about 3.5. Smiley face scooped EQ volume about 5.5. Low mid only moved to 2pm volume about 2.5. To perceptibly sound level in the mix.
That's with a noisy drummer.

[TimR]

[quote name='Happy Jack' timestamp='1441617260' post='2860182']
An excellent slew of advice here which I can't really add anything to, so I'll offer a new perspective.

Buy a Zoom H2 or similar and start recording your band. Rather than relying on opinions (the singer's, your own, comments from punters) you can actually listen to how you sound.

It's not a black & white thing and recorders often struggle to capture the true sound of the bass, but it's way better than nothing.
[/quote]

That's a good idea. There are plenty of cameras (not phones) that now have good quality sound as well. Then you can watch to see who in the band is shoe-gazing as well.

[PaulWarning]

I've just gone wireless and being able to stand in the middle of the room during sound check has opened my eyes, I keep asking the guitarist to turn up! btw, I use plenty of mids, around 300hz, cut the really low bass, below 100hz and I cant hear the guitarist on stage very well all I hear is my bass, drums and vocals but nobody complains, if your bass is putting the singer off there's something wrong somewhere

[Grangur]

[quote name='Firey Jack' timestamp='1441554800' post='2859753']
Cheers everyone! I had no idea driver size had no bearing on frequency -I'd just assumed bigger drivers give more bottom end. Anyways, we have another gig this Thurs in big hotel function room - not much time for sound check, but I'm gonna try and implement suggestions, apart from stands - I'm gonna set the rig up higher tho, think that might help a bit - I've learnt a lot already today - thanks again!
[/quote]

I thought that too when I got my 15" cab. What I learned (here) since is it's cab size that gives the deeper tones, not the driver.

Please correct me guys if I'm wrong.

[dudewheresmybass]

I apply the DFA button/ knob.
It's called this because it does f**k all

[chris_b]

Jack, at a first glance you seem to have a mish-mash of gear.

Your singer might not be explaining themselves correctly. Maybe you're sound is the problem for them, not your volume. Is your 2x8 is a combo? How does that work? And, because it's higher, maybe that's all the singer can hear. Maybe these 2x8's at volume might don't sound as good out front as you think.

Why do you need the 2 cabs? Is it for tone, volume or cos they're there?

Like the others I think you're problem is the EQ but, assuming it's loud enough, I'd just take the 115 on the next gig. Get a good sound out of that and evaluate where you go next. I've used different sized speakers to great effect but maybe this combination is just one of those that doesn't work.

If you can't make this rig work I'd just sell both cabs and get a good 212 to go with the amp.

[4-string-thing]

Sounds like someone needs a wireless kit, and to get out in the room at soundcheck... If the drums aren't mic'd, you should all be playing to their level. If he can't hear himself when it's all good in the room, he needs better monitoring. Could be that if he's out front and you're standing right next to your rig, that you are too loud and you're not in "The cone" ie, the bass goes past your knees? So you turn up til you can hear it but by then it's too loud further away.

Also bear in mind that a lot of singers are like a lot of guitarists, in that they think they should be louder than everyone else because they're the star!

[PaulWarning]

[quote name='4-string-thing' timestamp='1441632086' post='2860387']


Also bear in mind that a lot of singers are like a lot of guitarists, in that they think they should be louder than everyone else because they're the star!
[/quote]I'm sorry to say that in the Singers case that's true