Bad lesson/teacher experiences

[Notmyrealname]

So as you can probably tell by my username, this isn't my usual account. I post here fairly regulary under a different handle, but for reasons which should be clear in a moment, I don't really want to be identified.

I've played bass for about 17 years, in rock/pop/funk bands, and started on guitar first. I've never had a lesson but have gleaned various bits of knowledge from youtube, musician friends and books/dvds.

For a while I've felt like my playing should be a lot better than it is, especially considering I've been playing for as long as I have, so I found a local teacher and set about arranging a lesson.

I saw him last night, and had the worst learning experience I've had in ages. I felt like I wanted to leave about 10 minutes in. I wasn't made to feel comfortable, I didn't learn anything and worst of all I was made to feel like a complete idiot.

We started the lesson with me watching him play, and then with him making me improvise, to find out "what you don't know". After stumbling through some improv/soloing (feeling a bit nervous as i've never had a lesson before) he then sat and played and made me watch him again for quite some time, slapping, tapping, chords etc. After a bit of "got that?" he spouted some jargon at me, and when I asked him to explain he wasn't really able to. That was pretty much it, and for nearly £30 I felt ripped off.


Now I don't want to slag the bloke off (after all he's a member on here), but I left feeling like I was a terrible musician and I wanted to stop playing bass for good.

TLDR: I had a bad lesson and I feel like crap.

1) How to tell him I don't want more lessons without being rude?
2) Has anyone else had a similar experience?

I feel like I've wasted years of playing and like I'm a complete amateur...

[discreet]

In my opinion one of the key requirements of a teacher is to be encouraging, so I'm not surprised you're feeling bad about it. How are you supposed to learn an instrument by watching someone play it? Osmosis? Joe 90-type brain machine?

I wouldn't worry about being rude... just politely tell him you don't want any more lessons. You don't have to make excuses or explain yourself. I'm sure members will post recommendations for teachers that are good and that they have had positive experiences with, so just put it behind you and move on.

Don't let this put you off playing the bass.

[RhysP]

Why all the cloak & dagger stuff?

If the lesson was as you described then you'd be doing lots of people a favour by naming & shaming this "teacher".

Also, changing the subject slightly, I thought you weren't meant to have multiple user accounts on here (though it's never stopped some people)?

[tubbybloke68]

There is an art to teaching and those who are good at it get my admiration big time, but. ...
I had 5 or so lessons years ago with a name player.amazing player, of course but I was made to feel slow and patience certainly wasn't his strong point. I would dread going up there (which was hassle anyway) as not particularly local. In the end I thought f**k this lark, paying very good money at the time and having my confidence drained, so jacked it in!
So to all the great teachers out there. I salute thee and keep it up! !

[The Admiral]

[quote name='Notmyrealname' timestamp='1426787801' post='2721994']
So as you can probably tell by my username, this isn't my usual account. I post here fairly regulary under a different handle, but for reasons which should be clear in a moment, I don't really want to be identified.

I've played bass for about 17 years, in rock/pop/funk bands, and started on guitar first. I've never had a lesson but have gleaned various bits of knowledge from youtube, musician friends and books/dvds.

For a while I've felt like my playing should be a lot better than it is, especially considering I've been playing for as long as I have, so I found a local teacher and set about arranging a lesson.

I saw him last night, and had the worst learning experience I've had in ages. I felt like I wanted to leave about 10 minutes in. I wasn't made to feel comfortable, I didn't learn anything and worst of all I was made to feel like a complete idiot.

We started the lesson with me watching him play, and then with him making me improvise, to find out "what you don't know". After stumbling through some improv/soloing (feeling a bit nervous as i've never had a lesson before) he then sat and played and made me watch him again for quite some time, slapping, tapping, chords etc. After a bit of "got that?" he spouted some jargon at me, and when I asked him to explain he wasn't really able to. That was pretty much it, and for nearly £30 I felt ripped off.


Now I don't want to slag the bloke off (after all he's a member on here), but I left feeling like I was a terrible musician and I wanted to stop playing bass for good.

TLDR: I had a bad lesson and I feel like crap.

1) How to tell him I don't want more lessons without being rude?
2) Has anyone else had a similar experience?

I feel like I've wasted years of playing and like I'm a complete amateur...
[/quote]

So, he undermined your confidence, showed off his party piece playing and expected you to sit through it in admiration, and then when pressed, bullshitted about the theory of what he had been doing. That sounds like the kind of experience any teenage beginner can get from the 'salesmen' in any music shop in the UK, but without paying £30 for the privilege.

Surely any teaching situation starts with "where do want to get to" and "where do you feel you are now", and he's more likely to have learned something useful about you by having you play your 'party piece' than asking you to improvise, as that would put you at ease and show your technique : timing, fingering, hand positions etc.

You are the customer, and don't feel bad about telling him you are not going back. You should be straight with him, although it will probably fall on deaf ears, despite the fact that student feedback is a critical part of improving as a teacher. The failure in that lesson was not you, but your supposed teacher - don't feel bad, and keep looking for a good teacher.

[Drax]

[quote name='Notmyrealname' timestamp='1426787801' post='2721994']

Now I don't want to slag the bloke off (after all he's a member on here), but I left feeling like I was a terrible musician and I wanted to stop playing bass for good.

[/quote]

The worst possible outcome from a lesson, the complete opposite of what you go there for.

In years gone by I've had similar. You're doing the right thing by walking away now.

Many great teachers out there, I'll PM you a name

[leftybassman392]

I earned a fairly decent living as a guitar/bass tutor for nearly 15 years, and if I'd adopted the approach you describe I doubt I'd have lasted 15 minutes. Whoever he is, he needs to take a serious look at how he approaches the art of teaching the instrument. There's so much wrong with that kind of 'watch me then do it like I do it' approach that I hardly know where to begin. And what the hell is this 'So I can see what you don't know' twaddle? Honestly! People like that give the guitar tuition business a bad name - it's 2015 fer crissakes, not 1970. Oooohhh!

My advice - my considered professional advice - is to tell him you're going elsewhere (and if he asks why then feel free to tell him - politely of course). Or if you don't feel able to do that then just walk away anyway. Put it down to experience and try somewhere else. Plenty of good tutors on this forum who will talk you through it before you commit to any lessons. The only thing I would say is to try to be as clear as you can up front about your playing situation and what you're hoping for from a set of lessons. A first lesson should indeed aim to clarify where your playing is ATM, but not this 'let's see what you don't know' rubbish.

It's also true that sometimes tutors and students just can't see eye to eye on the way forward (and a lot will depend on how much practice you're prepared to do - oh, and be realistic about targets; sometimes things can take a long time, especially if the tutor has to try to unravel bad habits), but a tutor who can see your needs and know how to help you progress will be worth their weight in gold. Don't despair - try again. Hope it goes well for you.

Edit to Add: I think it helped that I had previously been a schoolteacher for around 12 or 13 years before seeing the light. Not strictly necessary, but if your tutor has some kind of teaching qualification or accreditation such as RGT membership then so much the better.

Edited March 19, 2015 by leftybassman392

[madshadows]

Being a great player doesn't make someone a great teacher, find someone else, try and get some recommendations local to where you live, a local music shop maybe, don't let this bad experience put you off playing, good luck

John

[3below]

Very sound advice in the previous replies. Just walk away, all you have to do is say I am not requiring any further lessons. If pressed the usual reply would be, it is my choice, is not up for discussion, etc. Find someone who 'helps' and develops your playing. The description of "[font="helvetica, arial, sans-serif"][color="#282828"]slapping, tapping, chords etc" left me cold. Of no use to my playing. As a qualified teacher with 30 years time served who now mentors and ratifies teachers final competence I could give a professional opinion.....[/color][/font]

[Number6]

I feel you have to be up front and tell him that his teaching style doesn't fit with you and unless he can adapt it to fit you the student you won't be back. It's not about being confrontational or anything just assertive. Teachers need and should be dynamic and adapt to the student.

[Twincam]

It's a shame it made you feel like you wanted to give up playing.

I am teaching my girlfriend to play, really only the basics and good basic technique etc. Before i did i made a little list of things to teach her and in a manor that was neither condescending or too technical. I made sure i first understood what i was talking about and using my experience of making mistakes myself i can also tell her why it is best to do things this way etc etc. Also i remembered to have patients with her, i think me still being a relative beginner i remember still what its like to struggle to even hold a bass.
So if i can do a lesson then its a shame more experienced guys can not.

[White Cloud]

If the learner cant learn by the way the teacher teaches then the teacher needs to learn to teach in the way that the learner will learn.

The best teachers are flexible to the learners individual needs. Good teachers explain and demonstrate...great teachers inspire.

Unfortunately most are sh*t.

[Sibob]

Also confused by the anonymity!
If the teacher reads this, he's probably going to know who you are, and it doesn't matter if anyone else knows who you are lol.

Put it down to a bad experience, don't book another lesson, move on.
Take recommendations.

There's two types of player in my eyes, one who wants to learn, regardless of the experience, and another who will give up at the first hurdle.
The same test can be applied to watching an amazing bassist, some will be inspired, others will want to give up.
Now please don't take a offense to that, I fully expect that you'll turn out to be the former, especially when the little hump in this case is not you, it's him

Good luck

Si

[3below]

[quote name='White Cloud' timestamp='1426801834' post='2722238']
If the learner cant learn by the way the teacher teaches then the teacher needs to learn to teach in the way that the learner will learn.

The best teachers are flexible to the learners individual needs. Good teachers explain and demonstrate...great teachers inspire.

Unfortunately most are sh*t.
[/quote]

Thanks for that. In inspection speak / reporting most means 90%. On that basis I guess it is time I left Basschat.

Edited March 19, 2015 by 3below

[blue]

I'm sure there are other teachers with a teaching style that is a better match for you. If your honest with this guy, I get the feeling he won't [i]"get it".[/i]

Blue

[timmo]

At least you learned early. I went for lessons for months., then he moved away. It was only when i went to another tutor that i realised the first one was fairly useless. Hopefully it isn`tt the same person as i go to because he is a member on here and pay £30 an hour. , it took us a few lessons of what i really wanted out of the lessons. He adapted the lessons, and i am really enjoying it. I think communcation with him/her to get the lesson suited. If it is the same person, then i am not overly bothered as i think he is really good

[Cameronj279]

I would say that you just calmly state what has been said on here. Nothing you have said was rude in my eyes and if the teacher actually cares about gaining and keeping students then he will surely make an effort to correct this? After all he may not even be aware that his teaching methods aren't great. State that you were left feeling the way you did. I see no harm in honesty.

I'm also a bit puzzled by the anonymity however.

[timmo]

[quote name='3below' timestamp='1426802315' post='2722245']
Thanks for that. In inspection speak / reporting most means 90%. On that basis I guess it is time I left Basschat.
[/quote] 51 % is most, so definately doesn`t mean 90. I doubt he meant you personally. A lot of the teachers from my area are guitar players, who will teach bass. There are some bad ones. Probably some good ones as well. I would imagine more than 50% would not be the best bass teachers available.I have to travel to get a dedicated bass teacher.

Edited March 19, 2015 by timmo

[ambient]

I don't see the point in the improv bit at the start.

I usually get the guy to play something that they know, and are comfortable playing. That's to see how they hold the bass, fret the notes etc.

I would only play to demonstrate something, it's not [i]my [/i]lesson, it's yours after all. There's nothing more annoying than having a tutor standing there basically just showing off, or practising their chops for that nights gig, rather than teaching what they're supposed to be doing.

Some guys think they can teach because they've been playing for a while, while in reality their knowledge is as full of holes as the prospective students, and being a great player doesn't make a great teacher, as I've discovered at uni.

Check out the website music teachers uk, there's plenty of good teachers on there.

Edited March 20, 2015 by ambient

[leftybassman392]

With all due respect to one or two of the above posters, there's a really important point that's in danger of being missed here. Teaching is a very specific skillset, which is different from playing.

Whoever the student and whatever the situation, an effective teacher is much more likely to have a high degree of competence in both of the required elements. A great player who can't actually teach will generally look to display their genius to students in the hope that some of it will rub off. If the student needs a different approach (as most students will at some point), then everybody's time and energy (as well as the student's money) is being wasted. There is certainly a place for inspirational playing, but if the tutor can't offer help and guidance in the day-to-day practicalities of playing the instrument when needed - which means stepping down to the student's level rather than forever asking them to come up to yours - then they are doing their students a disservice.

Over the years I've encountered lots and lots of great players - much better than I ever was - who should never have been allowed within a mile of students. If you want to be inspired by a great player, go and watch them in their natural habitat - a stage. To be effective as a teacher over a period of years one needs additional skills. Trust me, most students will get a lot more bang for their buck by engaging someone who can actually teach as well as play - hence my earlier comment about teaching accreditation or qualifications.

Not sour grapes (I enjoyed my work and was good at it), just an appeal to end the culture of players doing a bit of 'teaching on the side' with a kind of 'how hard can it be?' approach. It's your money folks.


[/rant]

Edited March 20, 2015 by leftybassman392

[3below]

[quote name='timmo' timestamp='1426804341' post='2722292']
51 % is most, so definately doesn`t mean 90. I doubt he meant you personally. A lot of the teachers from my area are guitar players, who will teach bass. There are some bad ones. Probably some good ones as well. I would imagine more than 50% would not be the best bass teachers available.I have to travel to get a dedicated bass teacher.
[/quote]

I am sure it was not aimed at me personally, have never taught bass

In terms of the 'weasel words' there is formal advice from the inspecting bodies e.g. ESTYN about how they are used

nearly all = with very few exceptions
most = 90% or more
many = 70% or more
a majority = over 60%
half = 50%
around half = close to 50%
a minority = below 40%
few = below 20%
very few = less than 10%

Thus in every education inspection report you read most certainly does mean 90% or more.

[dudewheresmybass]

Some great points made here.
As a full time bass tutor for the past 12 years, I'm shocked at the content of the original post.

Walk away from this chap, and find a tutor you can work with. It might take a couple of attempts, but you'll hopefully find someone you ' click with'
At that point learning should become fun, and you'll learn real world ways to improve, rather than party piece playing, which to be honest has only a VERY small place in the usable bass world

Edited March 20, 2015 by dudewheresmybass

[timmo]

Do qualifications make a lot of difference? The first tutor i went to taught RGT. He was qualified to teach up to level 8. When i first started, i said i wasn`t interested in grading. A freind also went to him for guitar lessons. He too wasn`t interested in grading.We were both told to get the RGT book, in my case the early grades. He told me that was the best possible way to learn, as that means he knows i am learning, and there is a good reference point to advancement of knowledge.He never owned a bass. We went through the book, and in the end i decided perhaps i would try to go for grade 2. We went through the scales and arpeggios that were needed for grade 2. Went through the bass patterns, then we got to performance.He told me he couldn`t really teach me that, and to just play along as best i could. He told me to basically play root, 3rd,4th,7th all the way. I never knew why, as he didn`t really explain.The musicianship, just get as many points as you can. He said i would get most of my marks from the scales and bass pattern , and i should get close enough to only need a few points from the performance, musicianship and aural assessment.Anyway, i failed by 2 points.He eventually got a bass, but i never saw him play it.
That is the reason i am hesitant on going with anyone who just displays qualifications with RGT. That was the only way he seemed to be able to teach, and there was no deviation. I imagine there are some good ones around, but once bitten, twice shy. The tutor i am now with went to university to study bass, and i am finding a massive difference, and well worth the extra tenner a lesson.

Edited March 20, 2015 by timmo

[CHW]

While I'm not the greatest player, I do have a lot of experience of tutoring, coaching, mentoring and teaching from various day jobs.

I've taught a couple of complete beginners, and found it great fun to do. I think the approach I'd take to teaching someone who has been playing for some time is to start with a good chat (unpaid) prior to a lesson and then go through where someone is at, what they are good at, what they really struggle with, is it left or right hand technique, is it a theory issue, is it a technical problem that they are so used to that they don't even notice?

Start to break down and rebuild.

In the informal lessons I've given, I've never played a note that wasn't to demonstrate something that we were working on..

[Notmyrealname]

Thank you guys, I'm feeling a lot better about playing today. Thank you also to those who sent me PMs, much appreciated.

As for keeping my identity secret:

a) it makes me feel like batman

b ) I'm not a confrontational person, this bloke is on the forum but has only posted once or twice in the last year or so. I just wanted some other bass players' opinions on the matter.

I won't be using this account for anything other than this thread, once this dies I'll delete the account, so don't worry about me causing any havok.

Thanks again for all the kind words

Edited March 20, 2015 by Notmyrealname