mentalextra Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 (edited) I'd imagine that Elton John has all his music "in dots" but does everyone? If The who invite me to play bass for them would I be expected to learn their songs by ear or would I get a wad of sheet music. When Pino gets the invite to lay down some bass tracks for John Mayers new album who if anyone has the responsibility to convert it to dots. If topflight musicians dont record songs on sheet music what happens when you forget something you played 30yrs ago? Edited March 17, 2015 by mentalextra Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visog Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 (edited) Actually it's vary rare to get the dots these days I believe. (I'm not a studio musician.) The only times you do are for shows (Lloyd Webber etc), gigs with strings or orchestras, and for top-level studio recordings (say for Barbara Streisand, etc.). For Elton, I don't know but his music director the guitarist Davey Johnstone probably expects you to arrive pretty much with the set under your fingers with rehearsals for honing the arrangements and breaks. And his current bass player is Matt Bissonette who's no slouch. For Pino I'd imagine you pay him for his groove, tone and approach. I don't even know if he can read music - I don't think he can but other BC'ers will advise. I once read Stu Hamm's hilarious account of auditioning for Allan Holdsworth - Stu was asked to prepare from a CD which had drummer Chad Wackerman on it but on the day of the rehearsal, AH's other drummer Gary Husband was in town so they ended up blasting through the material he recorded and Stu Hamm was lost. AH wrote the chords out and poor Stu had to hack through by counting the changes: Cb+6/9, 2, 3, 4.. etc. He didn't get the gig. Edited March 17, 2015 by visog Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skankdelvar Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nashville_number_system"]Nashville number system[/url]. Not the only non-traditional notation but bloody useful when transposing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lojo Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 The basschat Paradox Having a reading skill means your a better musician If you use that skill to perform live , your using a music stand so lose the better musician rating Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayPete1977 Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 [quote name='lojo' timestamp='1426623365' post='2720053'] The basschat Paradox Having a reading skill means your a better musician If you use that skill to perform live , your using a music stand so lose the better musician rating [/quote] Damned if you do, damned if you don't, lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ambient Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 As a professional it's a necessary skill to have, [i]incase[/i] you're presented with a notated chart. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ambient Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 [quote name='lojo' timestamp='1426623365' post='2720053'] The basschat Paradox Having a reading skill means your a better musician If you use that skill to perform live , your using a music stand so lose the better musician rating [/quote] I wouldn't say it means you're a better musician, it does mean you're a more versatile one, if it's a reading gig, then you're gonna get the call over someone who can't read. Same as having the ability to improvise a part fast over a given chord chart. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowregisterhead Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 Hand written notes and chord charts imported into my iPad mini, on a goose-neck holder on my mic stand. One day I'll learn how to use forScore.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RhysP Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 [quote name='ambient' timestamp='1426624875' post='2720096'] I wouldn't say it means you're a better musician, it does mean you're a more versatile one, if it's a reading gig, then you're gonna get the call over someone who can't read. [/quote] This. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowregisterhead Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 [quote name='ambient' timestamp='1426624761' post='2720092'] As a professional it's a necessary skill to have, [i]incase[/i] you're presented with a notated chart. [/quote] [i]Desirable[/i] perhaps, but not a [i]necessary[/i] skill. It all depends on what kind of gigs you might get a call for. Suffice to say in 40 years of pro and semi-pro work, I've never been asked to read dots. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EssentialTension Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 [quote name='mentalextra' timestamp='1426619733' post='2719968'] I'd imagine that Elton John has all his music "in dots" ... [/quote] Correct: [url="http://www.musicnotes.com/search/go?p=Q&lbc=musicnotes&uid=255758980&ts=custom&w=*&isort=globalpop&method=and&view=list&af=%20artist%3aelton_john&cnt=300"]http://www.musicnotes.com/search/go?p=Q&lbc=musicnotes&uid=255758980&ts=custom&w=*&isort=globalpop&method=and&view=list&af=%20artist%3aelton_john&cnt=300[/url] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ambient Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 [quote name='lowregisterhead' timestamp='1426625410' post='2720109'] [i]Desirable[/i] perhaps, but not a [i]necessary[/i] skill. It all depends on what kind of gigs you might get a call for. Suffice to say in 40 years of pro and semi-pro work, I've never been asked to read dots. [/quote] But if you got offered a gig that required you to read, then you'd have to be able to, or you wouldn't get it, kind of makes it necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayPete1977 Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 [quote name='lowregisterhead' timestamp='1426625410' post='2720109'] [i]Desirable[/i] perhaps, but not a [i]necessary[/i] skill. It all depends on what kind of gigs you might get a call for. Suffice to say in 40 years of pro and semi-pro work, I've never been asked to read dots. [/quote] From what I gather the people doing the calling have a fairly good idea about who has what skills or know someone who knows someone else who knows who can or can't read/play jazz/upright bass/etcetc, which is why you haven't had those calls rather than the gigs not being out there to get? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ambient Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 Personally, I would want to be able to do [i]any[/i] gig that was offered. I wouldn't want to not get one, that may lead to another, that may lead to another etc, because I couldn't sightread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 It will all depend on the MD and the artist's preferred ways of working. My only comment is readers can do gigs that non-readers het but non-readers can't always get the gigs that readers get. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lojo Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 [quote name='ambient' timestamp='1426624875' post='2720096'] I wouldn't say it means you're a better musician [/quote] I agree with this, but I wasn't intending to be serious or start a reading , non reading argument Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xgsjx Posted March 18, 2015 Share Posted March 18, 2015 I think it depends on the gig. If you're playing for a known artist, then I'd fully expect the score so the bassline can be note perfect. If it's joining to do new stuff with a songwriter, then I'd expect either score or something with the chordal arrangement before playing so I can lay a bassline down. I would expect a pro level bassist to be adaptable & know what is needed for the gig at hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowregisterhead Posted March 18, 2015 Share Posted March 18, 2015 [quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1426627266' post='2720153'] From what I gather the people doing the calling have a fairly good idea about who has what skills or know someone who knows someone else who knows who can or can't read/play jazz/upright bass/etcetc, which is why you haven't had those calls rather than the gigs not being out there to get? [/quote] No, I just don't move in those kinds of circles - if I was an aspiring West End musician for example, it would certainly be mandatory. On that premise alone, you're right, I wouldn't get a call, but then I wouldn't be interested in that kind of gig either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scalpy Posted March 18, 2015 Share Posted March 18, 2015 It's like any other job, you've got to have the right tools. (Which of course you can blame later if necessary!) if you were auditioning for an 'artist' gig, I'd presume it's highly unlikely you'd be given any dots or even reference material, the set list would be about it. Any sort of gig where the majority of the band is reading, you have to read. Round these parts reading drummers are like gold dust and one guy absolutely cleans up, picks and chooses what am dram weeks he wants to do. A friend of mine is technically a funkier and more profficient drummer- but doesn't read. No MD will take the risk on booking him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowregisterhead Posted March 18, 2015 Share Posted March 18, 2015 [quote name='ambient' timestamp='1426625885' post='2720120'] But if you got offered a gig that required you to read, then you'd have to be able to, or you wouldn't get it, kind of makes it necessary. [/quote] But I never have, that's my point. It could be argued that I would if I did, but I refer the honourable gentleman to my previous answer... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xgsjx Posted March 18, 2015 Share Posted March 18, 2015 [quote name='scalpy' timestamp='1426664012' post='2720360'] Round these parts reading drummers are like gold dust and one guy absolutely cleans up, picks and chooses what am dram weeks he wants to do. A friend of mine is technically a funkier and more profficient drummer- but doesn't read. No MD will take the risk on booking him. [/quote] Drum score is quite simple to learn. If he's serious about drumming, he should get a book or go online. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mentalextra Posted March 18, 2015 Author Share Posted March 18, 2015 I'm guessing that 'Pino', with his massive talent, can quite confidently 'bluff' his way through any session at the highest level without concerning himself with dots, leaving that to others to worry about. But can you seriously turn up to a studio session with for example David Bowie and not be able to converse with other musicians without a knowledge of 'dots'. I was reminded of this a few months back with the story of TOTPs, where all the music had to be played by the in house orchestra. I'm guessing all the bands had to have the music transcribed or did the orchestra wing it/play by ear? I was going to use The Stranglers as an example by I suspect all their music is in dots anyway Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sammers Posted March 18, 2015 Share Posted March 18, 2015 [quote name='mentalextra' timestamp='1426667433' post='2720394'] I'm guessing that 'Pino', with his massive talent, can quite confidently 'bluff' his way through any session at the highest level without concerning himself with dots, leaving that to others to worry about. But can you seriously turn up to a studio session with for example David Bowie and not be able to converse with other musicians without a knowledge of 'dots'. [/quote] Considering Pino doesn't read music I guess he does "bluff" it, if you hire Pino it's cause you want that Pino sound - his ability to read wouldn't come into it I don't think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted March 18, 2015 Share Posted March 18, 2015 (edited) I can imagine at least three different scenarios that a session player might encounter in a professional capacity. 1. The part is written out as notation to be played as scored. 2. The part exists only as a recording whether it is a synth part on a demo that's going to be replaced with "real" bass or someone else's bass part on a recording that is going to be performed live. 3. No part exists (except maybe in the mind of the songwriter) and you will be expected to come up with something appropriate for the piece. There might be a simple chord chart or might be a case of listening to what is already there and writing something to fit. Each situation requires a different skill set. A truly versatile musician will be able to do all three, but it's up to the person arranging the session to pick players with the appropriate skills. Just as a musician who can't read is no good for a session where the part has been written out as notation, someone who can't quickly come up with a new baseline or improvise to a basic idea is useless if they are expected to be part of the writing process. Edited March 18, 2015 by BigRedX Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discreet Posted March 18, 2015 Share Posted March 18, 2015 (edited) [quote name='mentalextra' timestamp='1426619733' post='2719968'] When Pino gets the invite to lay down some bass tracks for John Mayers new album who if anyone has the responsibility to convert it to dots? [/quote] [quote name='visog' timestamp='1426622618' post='2720036'] For Pino I'd imagine you pay him for his groove, tone and approach. I don't even know if he can read music? [/quote] [quote name='Sammers' timestamp='1426668805' post='2720414'] Considering Pino doesn't read music I guess he does "bluff" it... [/quote] Pino does't 'bluff' anything - he does what he does. I don't read, and I've never been presented with dots in nearly forty years of playing* bass. As said above, it very much depends what kind of scene you're involved with. The only time I see dots is when they appear for brass sections, who seem to like that sort of thing for some reason... *Edit: 41 years. Ulp! Edited March 18, 2015 by discreet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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