The minefield that comes from being in a band

[JamesBass]

So I've been in and out of bands now since pretty much day 1 of picking up a bass over 10 years ago now. The first few were your typical teenage lets make a lot of noise trying to replicate our favourite songs played badly! But as time went on and I learnt more and more I began to find better musicians to form bands with, however I've never had the luck of doing more than 25 gigs in a band, mostly over 2 or 3 years. Every band I've been in hasn't had anyone who has kids or a mortgage etc. but NEVER takes off!? Since the age of 14/15 I've always made certain, that my bands aren't cover bands, I despise playing someone else's music live and for a payment, I just don't like it, I have fun and enjoy playing the songs but just not live, it's just not me at all. I'm very creative and produce songs like clockwork, which is exactly what I want to be doing, expect with a band who are as serious as myself, as determined to make the most of a good thing and really push it on and try to make it our major source of income.

Perhaps I'm too pushy or determined? Maybe I'm just a bad judge of character musically? I just don't know, all I know is, I want a band, I want a band who write and record and gig and allow me to have a creative outlet and some great fun with some good people.

Rant over.

[Prime_BASS]

The thing is you play bass, and with that the stigma that you can't really play.

If I was in your position I would think I have two options.
1. Write pretty much most if the basic parts to songs, and find people who are willing to take a creative backseat. Also finding people with the time/energy/resources to be involved on a semi pro time frame but without getting much in return in terms of finances.

2. Start something that is pretty much never going to be mainstream. IMO the most successful bands/artists are ones who are listenable but are doing something very different. You may not make millions or perform at reading but if it's good enough you'll get some form of return. As always the trick is finding the right people.


I've been in the same band since I started playing bass a good few years ago now, and finally we are somewhere that I'm happy with creatively and that we can keep consistent.

[xilddx]

[quote name='JamesBass' timestamp='1384124797' post='2273137']
So I've been in and out of bands now since pretty much day 1 of picking up a bass over 10 years ago now. The first few were your typical teenage lets make a lot of noise trying to replicate our favourite songs played badly! But as time went on and I learnt more and more I began to find better musicians to form bands with, however I've never had the luck of doing more than 25 gigs in a band, mostly over 2 or 3 years. Every band I've been in hasn't had anyone who has kids or a mortgage etc. but NEVER takes off!? Since the age of 14/15 I've always made certain, that my bands aren't cover bands, I despise playing someone else's music live and for a payment, I just don't like it, I have fun and enjoy playing the songs but just not live, it's just not me at all. I'm very creative and produce songs like clockwork, which is exactly what I want to be doing, expect with a band who are as serious as myself, as determined to make the most of a good thing and really push it on and try to make it our major source of income.

Perhaps I'm too pushy or determined? Maybe I'm just a bad judge of character musically? I just don't know, all I know is, I want a band, I want a band who write and record and gig and allow me to have a creative outlet and some great fun with some good people.

Rant over.
[/quote]

I suppose I'm very lucky in that I already had some good friends who founded professional bands who eventually asked me to play in their solo or satellite bands. I have creative freedom to a certain extent and it's a delight to be a part of the bands.

I found Kit on here asking for a bassist. I knew I wanted to play for her immediately I heard her music. I had no idea what to expect from her as a person or musician, but an hour on the blower confirmed she totally had her head screwed on and a firm idea of what she wanted to do. I don't know if I'm a good judge of character either, but I think I'm ok, it was more instinct. I write most of the bass parts, sing backing vocal, free to make suggestions and speak freely, but Kit writes the songs, and we all know that it's Kit's band and her vision. We all work hard to support that, and we all have a great time knowing exactly where we stand but feel highly valued at the same time. It works pretty much perfectly. I've been in Kit's band for four and a half years and I'm very happy.

The moral for me is that bands as democracy have the potential to lose drive and fizzle out like a cheap firework. None of the really good bands I've been in have been democratic. I think a band like RUSH is very rare. I have a firm belief that one needs a good bandleader, someone with talent and creativity, vision and drive, quality control and discipline, with a tangible level of confidence in the songs and the band's performance. These IME will usually be high calibre singer-songwriters. Unless you have all those qualities yourself and start your own band, I would try to get in an established band who sound like they know where they're going. Talk to them first and get a feel for them. There are never any guarantees with a band though.

Hope you get there man. Good luck. And it will be mostly luck you need

Edited November 11, 2013 by xilddx

[Bassman Sam]

Well put Nigel. The best musical time for me was when I played for a strong writer but he let me write my own bass lines. Very satisfying when you can put your own stamp on a track.

[yepmop]

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1384128812' post='2273162']
I have a firm belief that one needs a good bandleader, someone with talent and creativity, vision and drive, quality control and discipline, with a tangible level of confidence in the songs and the band's performance.
[/quote]

Totally agree with this, the best band I've been in was led by the guitarist who wrote most of the songs but always allowed valid input except on the direction we were taking.

[Damonjames]

Yes I agree 100%, a band is like any other business, someone has to stand up and be the boss and have the final say. Foo fighters work like this, it's Dave Grohl's band and everyone works towards his vision. He has gone through a drummer, a couple of guitarists and the bass player quit and then came back before the mix and mindset was right.
The trouble is most rock musicians want to be "stars" and struggle to take a back seat!

[lowregisterhead]

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1384128812' post='2273162']
The moral for me is that bands as democracy have the potential to lose drive and fizzle out like a cheap firework. None of the really good bands I've been in have been democratic. I think a band like RUSH is very rare. I have a firm belief that one needs a good bandleader, someone with talent and creativity, vision and drive, quality control and discipline, with a tangible level of confidence in the songs and the band's performance. These IME will usually be high calibre singer-songwriters. Unless you have all those qualities yourself and start your own band, I would try to get in an established band who sound like they know where they're going. Talk to them first and get a feel for them. There are never any guarantees with a band though.

[/quote]

My experience too. These are the bands that tend to last, although if that control is too firm, at worst it can destroy everything, or at best it can result in a 'revolving door' as far as the supporting members are concerned, and sometimes a completely fluid lineup depending on who's available at the time. I've been in a few bands like that, but it's usually a less satisfying scenario as musically and personality wise it can sometimes be a bit too loose an arrangement.

And as xilddx says, there are never any guarantees with a band. Getting a handle on the personalities within a band and the dynamics between them is essential. In my youth I was in a band that I thought was going great. I had a bit of a problem with the guitarist's sound, and at rehearsal suggested some changes he might make. He said nothing at the time, but when I went on holiday for a fortnight, the band 'split up' and reformed again with another bass player! Being young and naive, I hadn't factored in that we rehearsed in the guitarist's parents summerhouse, and he owned the PA. He was therefore in a position of great power, but was a serious conflict avoider. That was in 1979, and I haven't seen him since! Ah, memories.

It's not easy to form a band, and even harder to keep one together, but when it works, there's nothing to beat it. Have a clear vision for what you want to achieve, make a plan, and go for it. Best of luck.

Edited November 11, 2013 by lowregisterhead

[thebigyin]

[quote name='JamesBass' timestamp='1384124797' post='2273137']
So I've been in and out of bands now since pretty much day 1 of picking up a bass over 10 years ago now. The first few were your typical teenage lets make a lot of noise trying to replicate our favourite songs played badly! But as time went on and I learnt more and more I began to find better musicians to form bands with, however I've never had the luck of doing more than 25 gigs in a band, mostly over 2 or 3 years. Every band I've been in hasn't had anyone who has kids or a mortgage etc. but NEVER takes off!? Since the age of 14/15 I've always made certain, that my bands aren't cover bands, I despise playing someone else's music live and for a payment, I just don't like it, I have fun and enjoy playing the songs but just not live, it's just not me at all. I'm very creative and produce songs like clockwork, which is exactly what I want to be doing, expect with a band who are as serious as myself, as determined to make the most of a good thing and really push it on and try to make it our major source of income.

Perhaps I'm too pushy or determined? Maybe I'm just a bad judge of character musically? I just don't know, all I know is, I want a band, I want a band who write and record and gig and allow me to have a creative outlet and some great fun with some good people.

Rant over.
[/quote]
Round where I live if you don't play 'the cheesy run of the mill covers' you'll not gig very often.....if it's the pub circuit your doing??? play covers my friend....I know you said you despise this but after many years and many bands this is all the average punter wants....they want a few beers and maybe a dance to something they know....If your after making it great I wish you all the best....Cheers Bob.

[hamfist]

It's an interesting point that many of you make, that in your experience bands work best with a strong leader, who is also the final decision maker.
I could imagine that to be true, certainly with most original bands, who do need a creative focus. I have not been in enough originals bands though to really have a considered opinion on it.

Same with cover bands, I don't know ?

Certainly for me, it matters hugely what material we play and if I didn't have a strong say in it, things could so easily veer off in a direction I wasn't happy with. I'd then have little option except to leave if I wasn't happy with the material (obviously also depending on how flexible the "leader" was prepared to be).
My current (covers) band works on an absolutely democratic basis, and the basis of the band has been together for many years. But the whole system doesn't work if even just one member either won't accept the democracy or won't input on it.
I have just left another band where it just didn't workout because one member wouldn't "buy in" to the democracy. He just simply wouldn't take part in any discussion and ultimately acted like an anchor dragging behind the band, stopping it moving anywhere.

I'll say that I far prefer being in a truly democratic band, but I do acknowledge that it is not an easy thing to establish and really needs the right people.

[51m0n]

I'm effectively the leader in my band, I tell you what its a real juggling act.

On the one hand I really really value the experience and expertise of all the current band members, not to mention their continued hard graft as we try and get a set of really interesting and engaging music together. I want to inspire them to bring their best to every rehearsal, encourage and never show any sign of frustration when things go wrong, especially when its out of our control etc etc

At the same time I want to keep guiding the band toward a reasonably specific vision for the music we are making.

Generally its apparent that the players are all excellent, the guitarist has a huge (really huge) stock of old ideas he can pull on at any given time, the drummer can play anything at all that I can imagine and the horn section are a brilliantly tight nit little team that work together in several bands (never had a major clash yet so thats not an issue). I am truly lucky to have found these people!

Just recently we have started moving on from that first flush of joy that we are making music we like, and started to get a bit more serious about polishing the final result. I can't tell you how much trepidation I approached this with, they are all good players, they are doing it for fun and the joy that creating and playing gives, and I've never been the final say on QA in a band before. And I really cant afford to ruin anyone's day and have them get all upset! So stopping a track two or three times in a row on the second chorus section because we were driting off the feel (its a 'problem' track in that it can easily start to feel a bit ploddy if we arent all really on it) was a gamble. Not really knowing how they would react was nervewracking, and I'm not someone who hormally gives to figs about pushing people a bit.

Interestingly it was nothing but positive, quite simply everyone (myself included) just upped their game a huge great chunk and rung the neck of not just this track, but everything we played afterwards. And then complimented each other on how well we'd collectively pulled our socks up.

It seems, a bit of constructive criticism of the band (totally inclusive, I know I'm as guilty as any of them on this track, and terrible at getting structures right) just got the best out them, And everyone approved.

I think I'm learning more about getting good results from people in a team situation running this band than I have from anything else I've ever done. But its still nervewracking and outside my comfort zone. Fortunately the band seem to be willing to put up with my fumbling efforts to get something excelletn created....

But being the band 'leader' is a hugely different thing than being in the band, I am only just begging to get a handle on it in truth...

[CamdenRob]

In my experience it depends on the sort of band your in... I've been to a couple of auditions recently to play bass in the backing band of a solo artist rather than joining a band as a full member. This is a tricky roll to fill as you want to bring you own ideas and style to the songs, but ultimately they are someone else's songs and if what I am doing isn't the feel they had in mind then it won't work out.

Its difficult, I've had a few people say "we really love what you do but can you be a bit less busy, tone it down a bit" I totally understand that these people have an idea of what bass should sound like in their songs, so we end up parting company and I'm off looking for the next band to try... Its seems to me that people want a competent player who will play what he's told to... Now if I was paid for this it would be a different matter, but the thing is I would rather be judged as a player playing my own stuff than playing something that has been written for me.

I've no interest in playing covers as I play for fun not my living, but I guess the dynamic in a working band is very different to an originals project?

[hamfist]

[quote name='CamdenRob' timestamp='1384166631' post='2273346']
I've no interest in playing covers as I play for fun not my living,
[/quote]

Lol. I love this assumption that it would be impossible to play covers for fun. I suspect this is not what you really meant though.

Edited November 11, 2013 by hamfist

[CamdenRob]

[quote name='hamfist' timestamp='1384167188' post='2273357']
Lol. I love this assumption that it would be impossible to play covers for fun. I suspect this is not what you really meant though.
[/quote]

Yeah that's not really what I meant. I was trying to say that I would play covers or indeed anything I was told too if I was playing bass as my job.... as I'm not, I'm looking to do something creative that I enjoy.

I guess I enjoy writing and playing my own music on the bass more than I enjoy simply playing the bass.

However this has been done to death and beyond the scope of this thread...

[BigRedX]

[quote name='JamesBass' timestamp='1384124797' post='2273137']
Perhaps I'm too pushy or determined? Maybe I'm just a bad judge of character musically? I just don't know, all I know is, I want a band, I want a band who write and record and gig and allow me to have a creative outlet and some great fun with some good people.
[/quote]

The unfortunate truth is that you might actually not be pushy and determined enough.

Playing original music requires a much higher level of commitment than simply churning out covers in pubs, and if you don't have a really good manager working for your band a lot of organisational, people skills and ultimately plenty of sheer blood-minded determination.

All though it's never been the case in the past (even if a lot musicians want to pretend otherwise) being in a band is about much more than just being able to play your instrument to reasonably competent level. In fact I'd be tempted to go as far as saying that technical ability is perhaps the least important thing. I've found that people who are prepared to put in all the extra work that goes with being in a band tend to be the ones that improve as musicians simply because they enjoy it so much. It doesn't matter how good your "chops" are if you want to jack it all in because you've just arrived home at 4.30 in the morning after playing to a handful of people at an out of town gig, you don't have what it takes to be in a band.

Like it or not the most important people in a band are the singer and the main songwriter. Everyone else (except in a few exceptional cases) is ultimately replaceable. So, if you're not currently performing either of these roles, now is the time to start working on your songwriting and/or taking singing lessons. Also the ability to play other instruments is never wasted. Otherwise you'll have to hope you get lucky by finding a band that has the required drive, is playing music you like and is in need of a bass player.

To give you some idea of the time an commitment you need to be putting in let me tell you a bit about my band. Currently we're gigging on average once a week (all over the country - if you can't get the gigs you want locally go where you can get them). Next year when our current guitarist situation is resolved (more on that later) we hope to playing at least twice a week. We have at least one full band rehearsal every week where we work on new material, polishing any of the existing set that needs the work working on transitions between the songs to tighten up the set, and revisiting selected back catalogue so we can still play it live should the need arise. Also the singer and myself also get together every week with the aim of turning one of our ideas into something that is complete enough to present to the rest of the band as a song to work on.

On top of that between all of us (although the bulk of the work is done by the singer and then myself) we put 30-40 hours a week into the non-musical aspects of running a band - contacting promoters and venues, keeping in touch with our fans/followers and other bands that we've played with, updating social media, sending out promo packs (both electronic and physical) creating the monthly email newsletter. We currently get around a 15% return on what we do - so every 100 gig enquiries lands approximately 15 gigs - and that's pretty good going. Also if a venue or promoter knocks you back try again in a couple of months, these things a fluid and promoters and booking policies change all the time.

Currently we're also looking at getting some better band transport and finding a rehearsal space that can be permanently and exclusively ours so we can be more flexible and intensive about our rehearsal schedule.

And finally regarding the guitarist situation. This year has been fairly volatile for band members (drummers and guitarists), and it was nothing to do with the music, but because they realised that they simply didn't have the time and energy that was required to be a member of the band (and that was just the rehearsing and gigging schedule). We've had to postpone two potential European tours this year because we couldn't guarantee a full band line up for all the dates. Even then considering how much time has been used auditioning and rehearsing new band members (or temporary stand-ins) during the last 12 months we have still managed to keep the momentum of the band going with plenty of gigs and the release our second single. What we are going to be able to achieve next year with a stable line up makes me positively giddy with anticipation.

So to the OP good luck in your quest. Don't underestimate all the extra work that needs to be done. Also don't forget that too many musicians simply aren't prepared to do much more than play their instruments have a bit of a laugh and play the occasional gig (that's an observation not a criticism).

[chris_b]

In my experience the good creative people don't despise other creative people.

[BigRedX]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1384168749' post='2273380']
In my experience the good creative people don't despise other creative people.
[/quote]

But most of the time simply being creative is not enough if you want to be in a band for more than just playing a bit of music and having a laugh.

[Happy Jack]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1384168749' post='2273380']
In my experience the good creative people don't despise other creative people.
[/quote]

But in my experience, the creative people (good, bad, and indifferent) have an absolute, unchallengeable right to despise people who play covers.

Apparently we're not really musicians, you see.

[xilddx]

[quote name='Happy Jack' timestamp='1384170754' post='2273421']


But in my experience, the creative people (good, bad, and indifferent) have an absolute, unchallengeable right to despise people who play covers.

Apparently we're not really musicians, you see.
[/quote]Oh Jack

[Monckyman]

Was a bit of a gaffe to state you despised the idea of playing covers whilst asking for advice from a forum full of covers bands....
Bit of a sore point with many a musician.
Bound to piss someone off.
: )

[BigRedX]

[quote name='Monckyman' timestamp='1384174304' post='2273482']
Was a bit of a gaffe to state you despised the idea of playing covers whilst asking for advice from a forum full of covers bands....
Bit of a sore point with many a musician.
Bound to piss someone off.
: )
[/quote]

While it could have worded a bit more tactfully, I believe the idea was to get some constructive advice about playing original music rather than just a load of comments telling OP to join a covers band.

[Monckyman]

Well, seems to me without counting the posts that it's been fairly even, with the bias towards trying to create original music.
I don't see loads of comments telling the OP to give up the effort and join a covers band.
In fact going back and reading it was just one.
It only sort of drifted towards contention when creativity was mooted as exclusive to originals only.
That's what got the reaction.
No biggy.

My advice to the OP?
Carry on and don't listen to any of us, only what your head and heart tell you.

Edited November 11, 2013 by Monckyman

[BigRedX]

Yes but I think that if the OP hadn't stated that he had no interest in playing covers he'd have had a lot more replies saying that's what he needed to do.

There's no denying that if you just want to have some fun playing music to an audience the covers route is the easier one to go down, but it's not the artistically satisfying one for everyone.

[skankdelvar]

Whether covers or originals, every band needs leadership. This is usually the frontman or the guitarist because they generally shape the material and presentation. Problem is, some of them aren't very good leaders.

In fact, one might argue that the skills necessary to engage an audience don't necessarily gel with the neutrality and detachment necessary to make clear judgements. I've lost count of the number of frontmen who take it as a personal slight if one makes suggestions of a technical nature entirely unconnected with their performance.

As the bass player (particularly in amateur bands and even if one is a writer) one is often forced into an exaggeratedly secondary or supportive role within the hierarchy. It is a pain, but them's the breaks.

IMO, an effective way to drive matters in the direction one wishes to go is to learn to sing and play at the same time. Become the frontman / leader and use the organisational skills which seem to come so readily to bass-players to move the band forward.

Edited November 11, 2013 by skankdelvar

[Dingus]

I don't want to go over the same points as a lot of other folks have made , but I would just like to say that , from my own experience , the only thing worse than being in a band with pushy people with very definite ideas and opinions is being in a band with people who no apparent motivation, strongly-held ideas or opinions . Maybe James needs to find people as driven as himself .

Making a living playing music is a very hard career to sustain for any length of time , though , and even a lot of musicians in bands with record deals that you see on T.V are barely scraping a living by most standards and have no real security . If you really want to be a professional musician , that is the life you are signing up for, so when you say you want to make playing original material your main source of income, James, that is great but don't be under any illusions that your income from doing so is likely to ever be very significant unless you are both extraordinarily talented and/or lucky, and even then you will probably struggle financially . I personally know people in bands that have had several hit records , done World tours and have big media profiles who have had to sell their guitars and take awful day jobs just to be able to feed themselves when their career flatlined and their record company unceremoniously dropped them . I know it's a cliche but it's true : music is a very tough business to be in . Are you sure that is what you really want?

As for playing covers , I enjoy it tremendously and I don't care too much what anybody thinks about that . It's a good job I enjoy it , too , because the harsh fact is that once you reach a certain age in this game , your most credible avenue for keeping playing music is to be playing covers.

[JTUK]

It works or it doesn't.....
Hopefully, you are dealing with mature people who buy into the direction and have the same goals...
and they can bend their own ideas to fit the greater good..
That also means they have their own lives as well.... so you need to be respectful of that.

If someone starts telling you exactly how it should be...they are going to have a fair bit of money to cover it.

If someone isn't buying your ideas and vision...maybe you should rethink how you sell it..???