Dingus

[quote name='SpaceChick' timestamp='1407602478' post='2522249'] If you can't re-read what you've written and see how you can be perceived as being offensive and inflammatory, then I really don't know what I can say. [/quote] All I have done is reiterate what other well - respected and authoratative commentators on the subject have said . If you find those ideas uncomfortable or difficult to accomodate then it is not really fair to blame me for that. It is not intended to be inflamatory or offensive, only erudite and well-informed. I would be happy to recommend the books that these ideas are discussed in if you would like? Like I have said, none of these ideas are remotely my own- I am just not that clever- but they seemed convincing and compelling to me when I discovered them. Maybe you would feel the same if you read them in full and gave them a chance, not a very brief summary by me .

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1407601000' post='2522233'] This seems in direct contravention to your comments about ability on the other thread [/quote] It is entirely consistent with my comments in the other thread. Not least of all, I would put Geddy's ability on the bass guitar against just about any other player. He is a formidable proposition Geddy Lee can play a bit. His perceived achievements are not the result of anyone making excuses and justifications for his limitations, unlike many other players I could mention. .

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1407599310' post='2522213'] What then is 'ability' in the world of pop and rock musicians? What is 'inept'? If you wish to focus on technical ability that's your affair. For me, ability is interpreting the needs of the music and fulfilling those needs with taste, nuance and passion, that could be Kim Deal, could be Scott Thunes. It's all relative to the demands of the music. Sounds to me like you need musicians to demonstrate a high level of technical ability for you to be able to believe in them and to enjoy the simpler aspects of the music they're involved in. Without wanting to sound patronising, I used to be the same - when I was a teenager and in my early twenties. There is absolutely NO NEED to have a high level of technical ability to be a great musician, it's all about the musical environment the musician is impassioned by, for them to connect to it on a visceral level and express what they are feeling. It's all totally subjective. [/quote] Who mentioned technical ability ? Certainly not me. I am referring to overall musical ability and musicality , and my assessment of what constitutes musical ability and effective music would, on the whole, tally with your own. . Some people have neither technical ability or musical ability. Kim deal and all too many of her ilk have some kind of innate musical savvy attributed to them [i]because[/i] they lack technical facility, when the reality is they have none . It is a classic case of the emperor's new clothes. All too often such musicians are neither skillful, tasteful, original or indeed particularly interesting in what they create, just like the "technical" players they are supposedly the antithesis of . There are many( too many) technical brilliant musicians who make awful music, but there are just as many unskillful ones who churn out dreary self-indulgent twaddle too. What I take exception to is the popular misconception that unskilled musicians are innately more creative, original and "refreshing" than ones that play well. Music is primarily a craft that you learn , not an art form that is the product of moments of transcendent inspiration, despite popular romantic myths to the contrary.

[quote name='SpaceChick' timestamp='1407601872' post='2522241'] Um excuse me, but I think I missed the memo where it was agreed that you would be spokesperson for my gender!! Sexuality has NOTHING to do with my bass playing! for starters I'm podgy, average attractiveness at best and the wrong side of 40, so hardly a sex symbol or able to exploit the fact that I have breasts!! I want to be valued for doing my job within the band. I have auditioned for bands where men have also auditioned and have got the gigs. I would like to think it was as a result of my playing and not the fact I have ovaries! And whilst we are on the subject, I don't think exploiting sexuality for personal gain is a female thing at all.... How many boy bands are based entirely on that premise? But you are the self appointed expert on this, so I'm guessing my opinion is worthless anyway. In answer to the Topic, I think Yolanda Charles is a hugely inspirational bassist, with incredible skills. [/quote] Regarding women wanting it both ways, that is not remotely my original idea. It is one that leading feminist academics and commentators have put forward for many years now. And sex and show business are equally entwined for both men and women, so there is no inconsistency or incongruity there either. So what exactly is your point? Where do you think I am going wrong?

[quote name='Doddy' timestamp='1407597854' post='2522201'] I was actually suggesting that there are (many) bass players in general better than Geddy. [/quote] Geddy Lee is a wonderfuly unique l and inspirational bassist. Who is better than Geddy Lee? What do you perceive to be his shortcomings ? I would suggest that there are few other bass players who are as good at creating a style and using it to great effect as Geddy Lee. Which few supposedly more capable players can better Geddy Lee either in terms of dexterity , technical skill or taste and judgement? Victor Wooten? Gary Willis? Don't make me laugh . They are both as dull as dishwater, and irritating with it. When Geddy Lee plays the bass , it is a special event. He's Geddy Lee. Within his chosen idiom., who do you think could do Geddy's job better?

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1407598346' post='2522207'] A fair dose of condescension in here, I feel. You are doubtless at least partially right in assuming (and you can do no more than that, I would say...) that the physical characteristics of female players is a factor in their popularity, but it's disingenuous to advance that it's always the case for everyone. I would equally suggest that, gender aside, in the 'music' industry, some form of showmanship could be counted as 'quality'. I can think, off hand, of a few 'popular' acts where, imo, the gender counts for little. Arthur Brown, with his fiery headdress..? Musical skills..? Big boobs..? No; merely a gimmick. Bob Dylan became favourite with many folks, despite his (let's be charitable...) 'vocal handicap'. Mr. Hendrix, with the ritual 'behind the head' or pyrotechnic skills..? Were they the key to hos popularity, or his technique..? There hovers a faint mist of snobisme, it seems to me. Some ladies find favour with the Chippendales. Some blokes prefer ladies. What's the charge, officer..? [/quote] I get accused of being condescending quite often, but I suppose it is just an inevitable consequence of being better than most people and then having no choice but to engage with them. It doesn't really bother me, Dad. The point is that women want it both ways. They claim to want equality and to be taken seriously, whatever that might mean, whilst at the same time shamelessly exploiting the benefits of inequality and exploiting their sexuality for personal gain if that opportunity presents itself. Sex and show business are inextricably linked, not least of all because sex will always be the most enthralling and compelling form of entertainment for mankind, so incorporating sex into other forms of entertainment will make them more attractive by association. But the pertinent point regarding bass players is that male bass players are for the most part rated for their playing skills, women ones are more often that not assessed for more peripheral l reasons , mostly to do with sex in some way or another . That would seem to be a fairly sober and sensible contention to me, and not at all controversial. Who would disagree?

[quote name='Doddy' timestamp='1407587684' post='2522061'] Only if the question is 'Who is the best bass player in Rush?'. [/quote] Are you trying to suggest that there are Jewish bass players that are better than Geddy Lee?!!! Does not compute! Does not compute!

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1407597147' post='2522185'] TBF Doddy I was struggling to think of any other Jewish bassists [/quote] There are loads of Jewish bass players!

What about Annie Clements who plays with Sugarland, among others ? One of the few pro female bass players in Nashville that I am aware of.

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1407586699' post='2522046'] The thread was started partly in jest because dingus could not grasp the concept of peoples favourite female bass players possibly also being a bit rubbish at the same time. Surely the answer to your question is Geddy Lee anyway? [/quote] Pete, I am fully aware that this thread was aimed at me, and I understand perfectly that people are perfectly at liberty to enjoy bass players of either gender who are not particularly accomplished players, but the point I wanted to make in the other thread was that, when it comes to judging women bass players, it is obvious that, in most cases, completely different standards and overall criteria apply. If Suzi Quatro is someones favourite bass player then that is fine - I have fond recollections of her myself- but don't try and tell me it is because of anything she has ever played on the bass guitar. Similarly with Kim Deal, her appeal seems to be that she can hardly play the bass guitar at all and revels in that lack of ability and yet has had a public profile and a wonderful music career on the back of that. That makes her an appealing role model for other people who can hardly play but want to think they are potentially able to make a meaningful creative contribution to something musical. There are plenty of awesome women bass players who are as good as the best male players - MeShell , Carole Kaye , Esperanza [i]et al- [/i]but if Marta was a fat spotty ginger lad from Scotland do you think he would have a similar amount of attention and apparent acclaim ? Never underestimate the power of novelty. Like I have said before, Marta is a fine player with a great future ahead of her and I wish her well , but she is not a sensation or anything truly exceptional. She is very competent, but here is nothing remotely original or unique about her bass playing . Even the more technically advanced players are judged differently. Naming names, there is nothing particularly special or appealing about Tal Wickenfield's playing to my ear. If she was a bloke, she probably would still be a complete unknown. There are plenty of other relatively high-profile female bass players who are fairly accomplished but overall pretty unremarkable players, but I am reticent to name names, even if they are professionals .

I just feel sorry for this bugger's neighbors. If this is the actual performance , what must it be like to have to listen to him practice? They probably sit there crying hysterically , wishing that he would break into the riff from Smoke On The Water.

As far as I'm concerned, if you are in a band and it says Berlin on the poster, you have to do " Take My Breath Away". End of story.

[quote name='stubass' timestamp='1407480101' post='2520872'] Stumbled across an open group on Facebook called "the bass guitar". Omfg! Guys tearing lumps out each other over their subjective opinions, the old, an seemingly constant "4/5/6 is better than 4/5/6" (delete where appropriate) argument and general character assassination. Ok most seem to be 'merican but some Brits too. Sometimes it's funny but it's rarely educating. I was always of the opinion that us bassy types were laid back, noble, wise and mildly intoxicated fellows with nothing but respect for our mutual love of the lower frequency, as we all are on here. Throw a book of faces at it and everyone loses their minds. [/quote] Isn't 4/5/6 the same as 4/5/6 , or am I being naive?

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1407511466' post='2521371'] This is where we disagree again dingus, many bass players have been terrible technically and in note choice etc but many people have gained enjoyment from listening to them, those go in the favourites thread IMO uxia in my clip has a clear understanding of music and the ability to portray it musically with superb accuracy and feel, doesn't mean everyone would enjoy listening to her, technical ability 100% though. [/quote] I'm not sure that we do disagree on the fundamental points , Pete, but where we are maybe talking at cross purposes is in so much as I don't think that because some people apparently find a particular bass players efforts enjoyable that, objectively, that in itself makes them a good player. The enjoyment stems from the psychology of the listener, not the skills of the player. We live in a culture which places all kind of confusing distractions between the listener and the music. All too often, our perception of music we hear is influenced by all kinds of extraneous external factors that are in fact completely superfluous to the music as a purely sonic event. We are preoccupied with image , attitude( whatever that is) and hyperbole, not least of all because most folks would find just listening to music pretty boring. Like I have said many times, people are free to enjoy whatever bass player they like for whatever reason, but that enjoyment in itself doesn't make the bassist concerned a good player. Only playing the bass well will do that. Some things are not just a matter of opinion. Everything is not relative. But most things are comparative, and by making comparisons we are then able to assess relative merit. And just let me make absolutely clear, I think Marta is a very capable player and I wish her every success in the music career that she is surely destined for.

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1407505958' post='2521295'] Perhaps there's a niche in the market for a contoured leather bass-playing bra for the older/more robust gentleman? This needs more research. [/quote] I don't know if there is niche for that kind of product in the bass market so much as in my private life, and probably your own too.

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1407505225' post='2521277'] It does have the virtue of at least partially preventing your moobs from flopping about onstage. [/quote] I've already got a bra for that .

Come to think of it, I feel like a pillock much of the time anyway. Maybe I will buy one after all.

[quote name='Doddy' timestamp='1407504789' post='2521261'] The ideal strap? [url="http://www.gruvgear.com/duostrap"]http://www.gruvgear.com/duostrap[/url] [/quote] I would feel like a pillock wearing that.

As wide as is practical -about four and a half inches- made out leather that won't stretch, padded with a suede back .

The thing is, playing well isn't about having technique which is good, better or best. Although most great bass players do have great technique. A lot of the female bass players mentioned in the other thread are lacking in far more than just technique. They are short of taste, imagination, flair and overall ability, just like countless of their male counterparts. "Technique" is a much misused term in any discipline . Most bass playing - even tricky playing- can be executed with pretty basic techniques, or without those techniques if you want to make life much harder for yourself. Discussing which bass players have the best technical skills won't automatically be the ones that play bass the best, ( and before we get into another heated discussion about what is the criteria for excellence, by best I mean in the most musically pleasing and effective manner. ) All that is meant by good technique is having a thought-out system of playing that makes executing whatever you are playing as easy as possible to get right. That is very useful thing , but in itself it won't make anyone a excellent player. It's what you do with that good technique that counts.

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1407443270' post='2520692'] [media]http://youtu.be/u_AI2v-4DTs[/media] She is probably more in her comfort zone here Doddy? OK the lines are not hers anyway, but I like her playing. [/quote] There has been some discussion about this girl before. I think she plays very well and I wish her all the best, but the pertinent question about her is would she garner the same kind of attention and acclaim for her playing if she were a man, even a very attractive one such as myself?

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1407500675' post='2521193'] I have never believed that big or small hands make any discernable difference to an individual's ability to play a bass. The one finger per fret thing is obviously a problem but tens of thousands of players use the three fingers thing without any discernable detriment in their playing (can you 'hear' a four finger per fret player'? - discuss). Most double bass players use three finger s and I don't think there is much to be said about the inadequacies of the technique. In short (see what I did there), little people can be great bass players too! [/quote] I would have to respectfully disagree with you on that , Bilbo, in so much as it's not just the size of a players hands but their overall physical stature that can be an advantage or disadvantage. A lot of more accomplished bass players do tend to be larger individuals. I have noticed that for a long time. It can only help to have a physical dominance over the instrument. Think about how much easier a smaller, short scale instrument is to play. Then imagine if your bass was 1/3 proportionately larger in relation to yourself how much more daunting a prospect it would be. Of course smaller folks can learn to play well, especially if they learn good habits in terms of physical technique , but bigger people have a very real advantage, it would seem to me.

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1407176926' post='2518099'] I haven't heard of half of the players Dingus is spouting about but I know every player I met with similar views against anyone they didn't enjoy listening too was a terrible player themselves, not in their own opinion obviously, just sayin' [/quote] [quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1407438776' post='2520614'] Nope not me, you have altered what I said to suit yourself I never mentioned carol kaye etc I know who they are. You are still struggling to see that just because you dont like a player it makes them a bad player, it only makes them bad to you! I dont like Jaco's music, does that make him a bad player? You are also struggling with "favourite female player" and "which female player has the best chops" [/quote] I mentioned Carole Kaye and that was your response. I am not vexed about it and am not falling out with you over it Pete - you may be sincere in that belief - but that is the inference I would take from your earlier post. Why is it that you think it is so inappropriate to discuss the kind of players people are highlighting as their favourites? It seems like fair comment to me. And I have never mentioned chops. None of the players I have championed are particularly choppy players, except for maybe Julie Slick , to some extent. Some of them can be busy players when called for , but chops isn't what they are about . They are, however, all highly competent and accomplished bass players with remarkable individual styles. The only thing that would make Jaco a bad player would be him playing badly. Some things are not just a matter of opinion, you are quite right. Whether you like his music is subjective. Whether he is any good or not is objective. Objectively, some bass players are not very good because they can't play well, . You may choose to enjoy those players regardless. Good for you.